Niqab and Muslim Women

[Brian37]

Little lunch

I've travelled through Indonesia and Malaysia, a lot.
I always found it disgusting to see a woman wearing the black niqab in 40 degree heat, trailing ten paces behind her pig of a husband who is wearing shorts, shirt and sandals.
They have to hold it open and slurp food from underneath whilst eating.
Head scarfs I have no problem with unless it's enforced by the husband or family.
I'd like to see niqabs banned but the main problem is that many women would never be able to leave the house again.
Sorry AtlasS33, but it's just another reason why the Muslim religion is worse than almost all other religions.

Seeing the wife wearing that gives the husband a sense of control, thinking about it it's the same feeling of FGM; that the wife is a "harem" owned by the husband.
Yes, disgusting isn't even enough to describe when you see that Muslim men have no limitation on what to wear.

It's not Islam, little lunch. But it's Sunni/Shiite way.

Brian37

Religiously justified gender clothing is not an invention of Islam. Christianity even today has its bullshit sexist clothing certain families and sects in Africa, South America and even in far right America force on their girls/women too. I would only say that the Burka worldwide out of all sexist clothing has to be the most oppressive to females.

Men of all the world's religions simply need to grow the fuck up and understand the bullshit sexism of antiquity does not apply in the modern world.

As an aside Atlas, do you really think you will magically get smote'd, smite'd or an underwear wedgie if you don't end your god talk with "peace be upon him"?

I promise nothing bad will happen to you if you don't say that. It is just a superstition, just like nothing bad will happen to a Star Wars fan if they don't say, "May the force be with you."


This message brought to you by ABBA, "peace be upon Agnetha". Agnetha is the blond on the right in my avatar. She was a goddess back in the 1970s. Hubba hubba.

Virtue was advocated by the Abrahamic religions for both men and women. Across history, the covering for women appeared:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcophagu...a_Tlesnasa

The reason given for this  in the Quran:

Sura 33, The Quran:
( 58 )   And those who harm believing men and believing women for [something] other than what they have earned have certainly born upon themselves a slander and manifest sin.

( 59 )   O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be harmed. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Not be harmed is the reason.
And "telling" is the only way to advice a woman to wear this; here you can see why I hate Sunni/Shiite Islam: "tell" which shows clearly in the verse got avoided, and many Muslims abused women and locked them in cages.

"Tell" became "enforce".

Not to mention that a woman can walk out of this deal anytime she wants:

Sura 2, The Quran:
( 256 )   There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

For PBUH, honoring Mohammed's name is demanded in the Quran. That's why I say it.
Respect is different than admiration!

I had a dream the other night where I was shagging the blond out of ABBA. Don't know his name.

Moral: the e is important for avoiding misunderstandings.

Brian37 Wrote:

The blond guy is Bjorn, the blond lady is Agnetha. But I am sure this was sarcasm on your part smarty pants. So here is a picture for some clarification. This is not Bjorn. 

The 70s was a weird era ! males and females had the same hair styles and material. So he might've got confused

Catholic_Lady

It makes me cringe to see a woman covering herself from head to toe like that, as though she were nothing but a walking sexual temptation. There is no greater objectification than that. Its sickening.

Women are more attractive than men. Checking women out and lusting on their beauty became a norm across cultures for men, and the goal of the look is mostly sexual (not always; but mostly).

But giving women a choice to either veil the sexy parts, or expose them is something I find good. There are shy girls who aren't even Muslim, but prefer to cover up many parts. But what makes me cringe too is the enforcing of this. Especially in the way Little_Lunch have said. It's so disgusting to see the husband in the front, and the wife in a Niqab left behind to walk like a sexual property.

I believe the veiling should be similar to what nuns wear
--------------------------------
(...to be continued...)

None of what you just argued changes a thing I said.

"Islam this"

"The Koran says"

Yea, so what? You are not doing anything differently that a Christian does in pointing to the bible. You are not doing anything differently that a Jew does in pointing to the OT and Torah and Talmud. You are not doing anything differently than when Hindus point to the Bhaghavad Gita or Vedas. You are not doing anything differently than when Buddhist point to Buddha. 

I think it is fantastic that you reject the violent extremists that use the same Koran you do. But it is still the same Koran. Just like the bible that Martin Luther King used is the same bible that the KKK and Neo Nazis use. 

And all of these religions also forget, there was no written religion 200,000 years ago, much less any nations in any case.

How about you consider that your sense of compassion and empathy is not being handed to you from above nor does it come out of an old book. Maybe the reason you are non violent is because of your own evolutionary empathy. 

Maybe the reason Stalin was an atheist and a monster, and I am an atheist but not a monster, es because of our own individual personalities? I am capable of the same non violence and empathy for others you are, I simply don't assign it to your religion in the same way you don't assign your goodness to the Bible or Vedas or Buddha.

Islam did not invent violence no, but they also don't own a patent on goodness either. You as an individual matter to me, not the book you point to. If you are a good person, I value you, but I don't have to agree with you as to where your morality is coming from.

Please don't start sounding romantic like Mystic did. I find you far more reasonable and far less dreamy eyed. Think for yourself, don't let an old book do the thinking for you.

---

And again Atlass, I include all three books of Abrham when I say this. When they say "don't harm" females, the are not talking about empathy as in equality. Men in all three back then were considered the rulers and their children property, especially females. The "don't harm females" back then was equal to saying "don't damage your neighbors ox cart". Females back then were never seen as equals but property, a resource, not equal to men.

[WinterHold]

It's not only one of the many stark absences of women's rights in some muslim countries, it's also a damning self-indictment of the men.  They really don't see themselves as being able to resist the allure of an elbow or an ankle or, allah-forbid, a woman's face?  Are muslim men really that weak and enslaved to their biological urges that if they see a relatively 'uncovered' woman that they get all gropey or rapey or adulterous?

It's the ignoring of the verse that ordered men not to look.

Sura 24, The Quran:

( 30 )   Tell the believing men to reduce their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do.

Men complete women, and women complete men. What Sunni/Shiite Islam does, is that it gives men a break from this deal; thus loading women with all the weight. Sexism at its best.

Because women are lesser in numbers, they got abused. I think and believe that some Muslim men know exactly that they can stop themselves from looking at women when it's needed. But it's the "acting a fool" to allow themselves to abuse others.

If they cant control it, then verse 30, sura 24 is wrong. Then Allah doesn't know them enough.

LastPoet

Imagine a muslim left alone in a nudist beach. We have some in portugal. Hell, even in a normal beach.

They do have trouble dealing with seing skin because precisely... they don't get to see that much and not used to it.

It's not healthy to treat a portion of society like the spawn of the devil or something. So hiding women from men in this fashion should indeed make both genders weird and even more prone to lust.

Catholic_Lady

Wow, completely different. They are wearing nun uniforms because they are nuns, not because they are women sex objects. And they are not required to be in uniform everytime they step out of the house or every time they are going to be seen by a man. Comparing a nun wearing her habit to Muslim women having to wear a niqab is totally ignorant and dishonest.

1 Corinthians 11:5, the Bible:

New International Version

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved.

1 Corinthians 11:6

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.


1 Corinthians 11:7
New International Version

A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

I would say that most Christian women don't read the Bible. Or leave religion to the nuns and priests; while enjoying life outside the Church. Only go at Sundays.

Many Muslims do it too; CL. But replace Sunday with Friday. They leave the Quran for the mosque; never thinking what the book actually says. That's how nobody questioned the Crusades until secular movements came; nobody questioned the invasion of Spain until ...IDK? Nobody questioned the Ottoman impales until they did it to Arabs, and nobody questioned secular politics until Israel and Trump came.

Brian37

To be fair to Atlass sexism was rampant in all of antiquity worldwide. Humans back then saw females as property to be bartered between families. And sexist clothing exists in every religion, even if not everyone in that label ascribes to it, many still do. 

Back in antiquity worldwide, nobody had any clue that females contributed half the genes. Girls/women were viewed as fields for the man to plant the seed in. It is why even to this day worldwide a majority of the time the female adapts the man's last name. It is still a form of subjugation born out of human ignorance. 

The Amish expect those girls/women to dress a certain way. LDS and Mormons too. Hindus and Sikhs also have gender role clothing too. You will also never see a female Dali Lama or female Pope. 

But even in polytheism in Ancient Rome and Greece, the head gods are depicted as male, and quite often, even in their mythology, the female goddesses are seen as second class, and human females like Casandra are used as pawns to make the male Gods look good. Ajax is a polytheistic character whom is depicted as a hero, but in his exploits he also rapes women. 

Point being again, Islam did not invent sexism nor does it own a patent on it. I would only say to Atlass, the same thing I say to any religion. Religion is still used, like it or not, to justify sexism, but not just his.

No; it's not sexism to say "women are different from men". That's a biological fact, even the theory of evolution teaches:

According to Joyce Benenson, a researcher at Emmanuel College in Boston, competition among women has three unique characteristics: first, because they have to protect their bodies from physical harm (so as not to interfere with present or future pregnancy and childbirth), women rely on veiled aggression towards other women (behind verbal gymnastics or under cover of the group) rather than physical confrontation.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ins...ompetition

So am I "sexist" for believing in Evolution, and that women are different than men?
But what is sexist, is the lowering of women and the denial of their rights. Both men and women have rights; messing with that balance is what produces an unbalanced conclusion, like the case of ancient Greece.

Cyberman

Why the "radical" qualifier and the "-ism" suffix only for Islam? That's rather a one-sided equation, essentially imposing on me a position I haven't advanced. What were you saying about ignorant and dishonest, again?

To be honest; it's all about the economical power. If a Christian nation had oil like Saudi Arabia, I'm sure that the scene would differ to Christian opinions more and more.

Right now, it's more of a victory for secularism over religion. Christian institutions know this, and so they remain silent and advocate peace.
They don't have oil like the Sauds who pushed Wahhabism with Trillions over the past century.

When Christianity had the gold; they annihilated a whole continent. And when Vlad fought the Muslims; he earned the title of "the Impaler".

Khemikal

If the purpose is to reduce attraction and perversion, then it fails on grounds of rule 34.  Niqab pron exists..hilariously, it's the only thing the girls -are- wearing.  Good job Islam!

It's not exactly surprising, these body coverings for "modesty" make it easier to objectify a person due to the lack of idiosyncratic and humanizing features common to human faces and bodies. The blindfold is for the executioner, not the condemned. They also make it easier to fanatasize about a person without all the nagging detail of..well...detail. Taken together, and along with the observation that taboo breeds perversions - nothing about the whole sorry state of bodybags and their variants in islam is remarkable in the least.

That is one great conclusion. Truly.
In ancient Arabic language, there's a phrase called "The Virgin in her veil". The concept is that the culture favors young, virgin, shy girls who are covered totally for all their lives; until the "man" comes and "knock their virginity out".

It makes the man feel dominant, and to feel that the woman must be crushed.

Disgusting. And it has its marks in the Hadith.

Catholic_Lady

You're literally equating habit uniforms worn by regular nuns for their vocation, with the niqabs as required attire for women in the Middle East if they are going to be seen by any man other than family. That's radical Islam, and you're equating that with mainstream Christianity by posting a picture of nuns, in church, wearing their nun uniform. It's dishonest to try to say the 2 are the same on any level, and you know it. You're a smart man.

It's not mandatory by all; for many it's a freedom of outfit ( check Iraqi girls or Egyptian girls; Lebanese too).
Saudi Arabia on the other hand favor it a lot. But still some girls don't even consider it.

You have Afghanistan, but I don't know if I should blame the foreign Mujahedeen or somebody else.

Brian37

None of what you just argued changes a thing I said.

"Islam this"

"The Koran says"

Yea, so what? You are not doing anything differently that a Christian does in pointing to the bible. You are not doing anything differently that a Jew does in pointing to the OT and Torah and Talmud. You are not doing anything differently than when Hindus point to the Bhaghavad Gita or Vedas. You are not doing anything differently than when Buddhist point to Buddha. 

I think it is fantastic that you reject the violent extremists that use the same Koran you do. But it is still the same Koran. Just like the bible that Martin Luther King used is the same bible that the KKK and Neo Nazis use. 

And all of these religions also forget, there was no written religion 200,000 years ago, much less any nations in any case.

How about you consider that your sense of compassion and empathy is not being handed to you from above nor does it come out of an old book. Maybe the reason you are non violent is because of your own evolutionary empathy. 

Maybe the reason Stalin was an atheist and a monster, and I am an atheist but not a monster, es because of our own individual personalities? I am capable of the same non violence and empathy for others you are, I simply don't assign it to your religion in the same way you don't assign your goodness to the Bible or Vedas or Buddha.

Islam did not invent violence no, but they also don't own a patent on goodness either. You as an individual matter to me, not the book you point to. If you are a good person, I value you, but I don't have to agree with you as to where your morality is coming from.

Please don't start sounding romantic like Mystic did. I find you far more reasonable and far less dreamy eyed. Think for yourself, don't let an old book do the thinking for you.

It totally depends on the understanding of the content. Books mean different thing depending on the context.
Just like nuclear technology can be used to produce electricity or death.

Living in denial and twisting words is depending on the person; all I can say is that these hideous versions of Islam would not have been produced unless with sick personalities behind it.

The book I believe in is a mere portion in the arsenal of a Sunni or a Shiite. Without the other books of Hadith, the Quran won't mean anything to Sunnies  and Shiites. Humans can find millions of ways to make a text fit their narrative & ideas.

I remember myself before being into religion, and I learned a lot. At least to treat others like humans and respect the laws of this life.
It's less about dreams for me, and more about logic.

[The Valkyrie]

Religiously justified gender clothing is not an invention of Islam. Christianity even today has its bullshit sexist clothing certain families and sects in Africa, South America and even in far right America force on their girls/women too. I would only say that the Burka worldwide out of all sexist clothing has to be the most oppressive to females.

Men of all the world's religions simply need to grow the fuck up and understand the bullshit sexism of antiquity does not apply in the modern world.

As an aside Atlas, do you really think you will magically get smote'd, smite'd or an underwear wedgie if you don't end your god talk with "peace be upon him"?

I promise nothing bad will happen to you if you don't say that. It is just a superstition, just like nothing bad will happen to a Star Wars fan if they don't say, "May the force be with you."


This message brought to you by ABBA, "peace be upon Agnetha". Agnetha is the blond on the right in my avatar. She was a goddess back in the 1970s. Hubba hubba.

What are these "1970s" of which you speak?

[Catholic_Lady]

It's important to remember, Val, that Christianity is not based on a literal interpretation of every passage in the bible (considering that would not be possible since many of them contradict each other)... especially as it pertains to the OT. Which explains why Christian women don't walk around with their heads covered (apart from the very fringe such as the Amish/etc) among many other things.

It varies from denomination to denomination, but Christianity is generally based on and defined by the life and teachings of Christ first and foremost. The rest is taken in its entirety, as an overall message being portrayed - not necessarily individual passages as though they were binding instructions. And they are taken secondary to the teachings of Christ. That's why when the Old Testament says things like "an eye for an eye", and Jesus directly contradicts that by telling us to love our enemies and turn our cheek, as Christians we follow the teaching of Christ between the 2.

Anyway, moral of the story being it doesn't make much sense to point to isolated passages in the bible and say that if Christians were *truly* following their religion they would follow that particular passage (example: women must cover their heads), because that is not how Christianity is.

I feel like most atheists already understand all this anyway, but figured I'd put it out there again since it was brought up.

[chimp3]

In the late 70's and through the 80's I attended many hippy gatherings. Rainbow Family Festivals. 5000 hippies way out in the sticks, a lot of nudity. It is very interesting what actually occurs when 100s of people are naked together. Picture young, beautiful, shapely males and females alongside middle aged men and woman with pot bellies, surgical scars, varicose veins, and elderly folks with everything sagging. Everyone commingling and discussing things more important than modesty. Sexual thoughts are not at the forefront. Modesty is over rated.