Proxy war in Ukraine?

[The Architect Of Fate]

Certainly alot quicker than I thought..though, to be fair, I didn't really think that russia would...seemingly...swallow it's own lines of bullshit and press this past any point of advantage.  That has alot to do with the weapons ukraines recieved, for sure.  More anti tank weapons, for example, than there are tanks on the face of the earth.  I think the idea that this is a proxy war is a remnant of most of our (as in, the worlds) notions that russia could not be defeated by ukraine, and so we need to come up with an explanation for that which preserves some sense of our having not been completely wrong about a thing.  The way we've done it so far is to fail to credit ukraine for what ukraine has done, insisting that, somehow, the us did it.  

I think, if we still believe that russia still has any means to gain anything here, that russia would be very interested in knowing what that was, or how.  I don't think they intended or expected to cripple their armor, or lose their best troops, or expose their own weaknesses in such a fantastic way.

Also, you gotta love it when people who complain about western imperialism then turn around a reflect some of the very attitudes of imperialists by essentially turning Ukraine into a non-actor in its own war. A war I might add the rest of the world only seriously got involved in after Ukraine showed it could hold its own.

[Anomalocaris]

Look at the air war.  It costs Ukraine more money to shoot down a Russian missile than it costs to make that missile.  Last I heard is that 90% of Russian missiles are getting shot down; if they launch 100, ten are making it to their targets.

The Ukrainian claims of Shooting down 90% of the Russian missile seems to be in keeping with the customary practice of Soviet historiography, which is replete with instances where the glorious red army captured and killed a much larger number of Hitlerite invaders than was actually there in the battle.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, wasn't any of that, just NASAMS and other modern air defense facing off against aging tech and poor leadership.

[Jehanne]

Yes, look at the air war, or..rather, the fact that there isn't one. Here again, the weapons ukraine has recieved have alot to do with russias inability to use it's air force, and also, yes, the poor performance of their missiles. Interesting fact, ukraine also has a ton of those same missiles - but they haven't been lobbing them into russia. If this were a proxy war...and at us behest, that would be a bit difficult to explain.

In fact, much of western support from every country amounts to a requirement that ukraine -not- attack russia..which isn't a great way to win any kind of war.

Agreed! If Ukraine never attacks Russia, then Russia can continue to attack them, indefinitely. Life in Moscow has returned to normal; few there are without water or electricity.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Look at the air war.  It costs Ukraine more money to shoot down a Russian missile than it costs to make that missile.  Last I heard is that 90% of Russian missiles are getting shot down; if they launch 100, ten are making it to their targets.

You mean the air war that essentially grounded airforce and to this day has denied them air superiority  and the fact their missiles have performed so poorly is evidence something is very wrong

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, look at the air war, or..rather, the fact that there isn't one.  Here again, the weapons ukraine has recieved have alot to do with russias inability to use it's air force, and also, yes, the poor performance of their missiles.  Interesting fact, ukraine also has a ton of those same missiles - but they haven't been lobbing them into russia.  If this were a proxy war...and at us behest, that would be a bit difficult to explain.

In fact, much of western support from every country amounts to a requirement that ukraine -not- attack russia..which isn't a great way to win any kind of war.

Agreed!  If Ukraine never attacks Russia, then Russia can continue to attack them, indefinitely.  Life in Moscow has returned to normal; few there are without water or electricity.

Not really.  You'll notice that the us was never struck by any missiles from iraq or afghanistan, and we couldn't have kept that up indefinitely either.  We were losing -alot- less men and money and material in those cases, too.

I think that's probably one of the worst case scenarios at present. Maybe russia gets it shit together long enough to deliver a crippling blow, and this devolves into a forever war against the worst of whomever remains or rises to power in the ashes. No good for anyone, I'd imagine.

[Anomalocaris]

Yeah, wasn't any of that, just NASAMS and other modern air defense facing off against aging tech and poor leadership.

You know this how?

[The Architect Of Fate]

The Ukrainian claims of Shooting down 90% of the Russian missile seems to be in keeping with the customary practice of Soviet historiography, which frequently asserts the. brave forces of the mother land having captured some number of the German invaders, and killed some number of German invaders, at some glorious battle.   Either of these two numbers turn out to be larger than the total number of Germans that were there during the battle.

Or the Russians missile systems are simply shit and the Ukrainians are having an easy time shooting them down.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Yes, look at the air war, or..rather, the fact that there isn't one.  Here again, the weapons ukraine has recieved have alot to do with russias inability to use it's air force, and also, yes, the poor performance of their missiles.  Interesting fact, ukraine also has a ton of those same missiles - but they haven't been lobbing them into russia.  If this were a proxy war...and at us behest, that would be a bit difficult to explain.

In fact, much of western support from every country amounts to a requirement that ukraine -not- attack russia..which isn't a great way to win any kind of war.

Agreed!  If Ukraine never attacks Russia, then Russia can continue to attack them, indefinitely.  Life in Moscow has returned to normal; few there are without water or electricity.

Last I checked you don't need to directly attack a nation to defeat it. 

Vietnam anyone ....

[The Architect Of Fate]

You know this how?

The fact we know what the Russians are using and the US supplied the Ukrainians  with modern air defenses.....