Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[Tonus]

Wrong again Ton.
The link say a lot of things.

Yes, and I pointed that out. Why is it that when I point out that you're wrong, you just repeat the wrong thing as if I didn't already explain why it was wrong? Do you have some kind of short-term memory problem? Because you can just look to the previous posts and see that I already answered this. Or are you being dumb on purpose? That's not a very useful way to go through life.

[Little Rik]

You see Ton a lot of people believe a lot of things but when you confront them they come up with the old dogmas.
One thing is to say something.
A different thing is to prove that what they say make sense.

Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.  You don't seem to realize that you are in exactly the same boat.

I  take your opinion in high esteem.  

It seems like you never watch the news.
Doesn't the Arab spring ring any bell in your ears?
Was any thing achieved?

So... you're saying there was no progress in a region of the world under heavy religious influence?  That supports the point I was making.  Do you even understand that you are reinforcing what I am saying, and specifically undermining your own claims?

Not only no progress but in fact the situation is far worse.
One dictator replaced the previous one so all blood lost  for achieving absolutely nothing.  

Does a lifejacket represent progress?
All it does is to put you back on your feet on the ground as you were before you got into trouble.

The life jacket means you survive an event that would otherwise kill you.  So yes, that is progress.

I suggest you to understand the meaning of progress Ton.
Progress is advancement.
Since when putting the feet where you where before is advancement? 

Real progress is possible but not in the physical-material arena so don't tell me that i don't believe in progress.

So real progress is only possible in a realm that doesn't exist, but you claim to believe in progress.  Amazing.  Yet again you redefine a term into uselessness in order to support something you claimed.  You are deliberately reducing your worldview to nonsense, for some weird reason.

So you got evidence that the spiritual realm doesn't exist.
Let us see this evidence Ton.

The report goes back to the 1984 and the late 90.
What is not ages ago for you can be for different people.

So you continue to pile more dishonesty on top of your dishonesty.  I'd like to say that I'm surprised, but I am not.

Time can play funny things Ton.
You may think that the time follow the hours and the minutes like the time established by the  Greenwich Mean Time.
But not, it just doesn't work like that.
It is all about our state of mind.

2) I said that their statements say that they got rid of malaria not that the malaria has been eradicated.
In fact it all turned wrong just as i try to explained you in order to show you how science can not get rid of
problems in a permanent way but you mix all around in order to show that you are correct and i am wrong.
Failed again Ton. 

Correcting your lies is not "mix[ing] all around."  You said they claimed that they got rid of it.  Past tense.  They were claiming that they felt they had the cure and could eradicate it, not that they had.  I will also point out your hypocrisy, in playing word games with the phrase "ages ago" and then playing the exact opposite game with the quotes from scientists.  And then daring to claim that I am the one playing word games.  Does your dishonesty know no depths?  You're so wrong at this point that you cannot salvage your claim, but you are determined to pile lie on top of lie for reasons that I can't even fathom.

Wrong again Ton.
According to them they had a cure to malaria.
This can only means that they came up with a solution and solution means eradication in that sense.
You can play with the words as much as you can.
That's your problem. 

For every person known who die of malaria there got to be at least 20 times more that go unreported that is why i don't believe in the official statistics.

So you just make up statistics when the real statistics don't support your claim?  Are you TRYING to find new ways to be dishonest?  This is just appalling.  You could have simply admitted that you exaggerated your claims and tried to find some other way to make your point, but this constant doubling-down on lies and dishonesty is just bizarre.  It really is.

Ton, you never travel in trouble places.
You wouldn't know that the official statistics mean absolutely nothing.
Keep on dreaming Ton. 

And your attempt to use this one example to show that science doesn't progress is silly.  We have almost completely eradicated diseases like polio and smallpox and measles.  Why haven't we been able to completely eradicate them?  Because of people like YOU, who make false claims and try to drag us backwards, then complain that we're not making progress.  It's tragic.

The reason why medical science never get there is because someone play with us.
But this is something that you will learn later on. 

You can show me the progress of sitting in front of the monitor and i can show you the bad side of it.

All you can do is list things that I already showed are not an issue, and things that are easily remedied with additional knowledge, which can be retrieved via the computer attached to that monitor.  Just because you repeat something that is wrong, does not make it less wrong.

Hard to admit it Ton, doesn't it Ton! 

Night.

[Tonus]

Not only no progress but in fact the situation is far worse.
One dictator replaced the previous one so all blood lost  for achieving absolutely nothing.

Exactly.  Your way of viewing the world slows --or even halts-- progress.

Since when putting the feet where you where before is advancement?

Not drowning when you fall in water is advancement.  It's your example, Rik.  Not my fault if it supports my point instead of yours.

So you got evidence that the spiritual realm doesn't exist.
Let us see this evidence Ton.

My evidence is you, and every other person who claims it exists and so far has not produced a shred of evidence for it.  Not just that, but you all have different descriptions of it and different explanations for how it works, and you all admit that no one can detect this realm except through their own imaginations.

YOU are the evidence.  There is no spirit realm until you and the rest of the claimants prove otherwise.  Now go ahead and produce a spirit realm and you won't have to ask questions from a position of weakness anymore.

Time can play funny things Ton.

So can cognitive dissonance.

This can only means that they came up with a solution and solution means eradication in that sense.
You can play with the words as much as you can.

I love that you keep doing the same thing-- you play word games with the "ages ago" part and then do the opposite with the "got rid of" part, and then accuse me of playing word games.  You can't have it both ways.  But sure, repeat your hypocritical word game AGAIN in your next reply.  I'm sure that'll change everything.

Ton, you never travel in trouble places.
You wouldn't know that the official statistics mean absolutely nothing.

What you mean is that the official statistics don't mean anything unless they support your claims, in which case you are willing to trust them.  You redefine and repurpose everything in order to maintain your delusion.  That may work for you, but the rest of us can see the deception crystal-clear.

The reason why medical science never get there is because someone play with us.
But this is something that you will learn later on.

Heh.  So that's your final response to that?  "You'll see?"  Pro tip: that's what other theists say, too.  See above regarding the evidence for the claim that there is no spirit realm.

Hard to admit it Ton, doesn't it Ton!

This makes no sense.  Or at least, less sense than most of your post.

[Little Rik]

Not only no progress but in fact the situation is far worse.
One dictator replaced the previous one so all blood lost  for achieving absolutely nothing.

Exactly.  Your way of viewing the world slows --or even halts-- progress.

If you really think that the Arab spring lead to progress please show this progress.

Since when putting the feet where you where before is advancement?

Not drowning when you fall in water is advancement.  It's your example, Rik.  Not my fault if it supports my point instead of yours.

It sound like you had some mushroom trip so the confusion in your mind is taking over the reason.
Look again what i said in the previous post.
I said..............I suggest you to understand the meaning of progress Ton.
Progress is advancement.
Since when putting the feet where you where before is advancement?
......so did i ever said that not drowning is advancement?

So you got evidence that the spiritual realm doesn't exist.
Let us see this evidence Ton.

My evidence is you, and every other person who claims it exists and so far has not produced a shred of evidence for it.  Not just that, but you all have different descriptions of it and different explanations for how it works, and you all admit that no one can detect this realm except through their own imaginations.
YOU are the evidence.  There is no spirit realm until you and the rest of the claimants prove otherwise.  Now go ahead and produce a spirit realm and you won't have to ask questions from a position of weakness anymore.

You got very big expectation Ton.
Suppose you are in love with someone.
Now i pop up and i ask you to pass to me that beautiful feeling that you got within.
Can you do that?
Spiritual love follow similar lines.
You just can't pass this love to other.
It belong to you and you alone.
If you really want to experience the same feeling you got to do the hard work that lead you there.
As simple or better say as hard as that.  

Time can play funny things Ton.

So can cognitive dissonance.

Yes it can.
Luckily that is not my problem.  

This can only means that they came up with a solution and solution means eradication in that sense.
You can play with the words as much as you can.

I love that you keep doing the same thing-- you play word games with the "ages ago" part and then do the opposite with the "got rid of" part, and then accuse me of playing word games.  You can't have it both ways.  But sure, repeat your hypocritical word game AGAIN in your next reply.  I'm sure that'll change everything.

Let us have an independent party and see who is correct and who talk bullshit.  

Ton, you never travel in trouble places.
You wouldn't know that the official statistics mean absolutely nothing.

What you mean is that the official statistics don't mean anything unless they support your claims, in which case you are willing to trust them.  You redefine and repurpose everything in order to maintain your delusion.  That may work for you, but the rest of us can see the deception crystal-clear.

If you don't believe me just go in a Lesotho or in an Indian village and ask the people there if anyone from the statistic board ever came to them and ask them how many people die of malaria, tubercolosis and any other disease.
Guess what the answer will be?
NO.

The reason why medical science never get there is because someone play with us.
But this is something that you will learn later on.

Heh.  So that's your final response to that?  "You'll see?"  Pro tip: that's what other theists say, too.  See above regarding the evidence for the claim that there is no spirit realm.

You just remind me something Ton.
Some dogs can sniff drugs inside luggage at the airport.
We humans can not do that.
We can do a lot of other things and yet we can not do other things.
Is not all about training.
It is also about what our nature can do.
So where this reasoning take us to?
To you probably takes you nowhere.
To me it takes me somewhere.
It tell me that we should never deny what we can not see or understand just
because we can't get there with our understanding.
Everything is open for the unexpected.
So considering that this physical universe can not bring peace of mind and unlimited happiness
there got to be a different way to get there.
Not only that but it seems that someone is playing with us until we wake up and understand that
unlimited happiness and peace of mind can not be found here in this physical world.

Hard to admit it Ton, doesn't it Ton!

This makes no sense.  Or at least, less sense than most of your post.

Night.  

[Tonus]

If you really think that the Arab spring lead to progress please show this progress.

Pay attention, Rik: I am telling you that if it did not lead to progress, it is because of religious and 'spiritual' thinkers like you.

Progress is advancement.
Since when putting the feet where you where before is advancement?

Not being dead allows you to advance.  The life vest makes progress possible, and therefore is a sign of progress.  Why do you insist on having this stuff explained to you as if to a six-year-old?

You got very big expectation Ton.

Yes and no.  No one has yet to prove the existence of the spirit realm, and therefore it's a pretty big task.  By the way, telling me that we cannot 'see' love doesn't prove that the spirit realm exists.  And telling me that I need to 'do the hard work' to prove your point for you doesn't prove it either.  On the other hand, my expectations for you are quite limited, which you managed to justify once again.

Let us have an independent party and see who is correct and who talk bullshit.

Fee free to find an independent party.  I'll keep pointing out how and why you are wrong.

If you don't believe me just go in a Lesotho or in an Indian village and ask the people there if anyone from the statistic board ever came to them and ask them how many people die of malaria, tubercolosis and any other disease.

There is no "statistic board" that travels the world collecting data from the man on the street.  Why would anyone trust a person from some small town or village to collect such statistics, even within their limited reach?  Why would I trust Stan in Cambodia for any sort of insight into global statistics?  No wonder you're so wrong all the time.

We can do a lot of other things and yet we can not do other things.
Is not all about training.
It is also about what our nature can do.

Look, spewing a bunch of nonsensical crap to support other nonsensical crap only leaves you with two piles of crap.  Making up a bunch of stuff and then using it to support the idea that "something else must be the answer" just leaves you wandering around in the dark.  Read what you wrote, man; it's silly and makes no sense.  You've got to do better than that.

[Little Rik]

If you really think that the Arab spring lead to progress please show this progress.

Pay attention, Rik: I am telling you that if it did not lead to progress, it is because of religious and 'spiritual' thinkers like you.

Pay attention Ton.
The people revolt because lack of job, of money and freedom.
What religion has to do with that only Santa knows.

Progress is advancement.
Since when putting the feet where you where before is advancement?

Not being dead allows you to advance.  The life vest makes progress possible, and therefore is a sign of progress.  Why do you insist on having this stuff explained to you as if to a six-year-old?

Not being dead allows you to advance but allow doesn't mean that you advance.
In order to advance you got to move your feet (so to speak) forwards.
If i just give you a life vest that is not progress at all.
It is only putting you in the position to make some progress but progress is not
made until you go back on land and by your own effort you move ahead.
But is not even true that by dying you are prevented from moving ahead in your progress.
Life goes on and on reincarnation after reincarnation so by dying you just stop your
possible progress for a while.
Nothing is really lost anyway.

You got very big expectation Ton.

Yes and no.  No one has yet to prove the existence of the spirit realm, and therefore it's a pretty big task.  By the way, telling me that we cannot 'see' love doesn't prove that the spirit realm exists.  And telling me that I need to 'do the hard work' to prove your point for you doesn't prove it either.  On the other hand, my expectations for you are quite limited, which you managed to justify once again.

The reason why i am telling you that you got big expectation is because you pretend to have physical evidence of something that is abstract and not physical.
This way of thinking has been blinding atheists since they exist and will so in the future.
The day that atheists will wake up and grow up to this reality they no longer will be atheists.  

If you don't believe me just go in a Lesotho or in an Indian village and ask the people there if anyone from the statistic board ever came to them and ask them how many people die of malaria, tubercolosis and any other disease.

There is no "statistic board" that travels the world collecting data from the man on the street.  Why would anyone trust a person from some small town or village to collect such statistics, even within their limited reach?  Why would I trust Stan in Cambodia for any sort of insight into global statistics?  No wonder you're so wrong all the time.

You just make my point.
I rest my case Ton.  
It all started when we were talking about statistics.
I said that the official statistics do not take into account the real happening but only
what goes on mainly in the western countries.
This argument was related to malaria statistics in which you said that malaria is not the world N 1 killer.
Now considering that the official statistics do not take into account what happen around the globe
my bet that malaria is the N 1 killer is not off the mark at all.

[Tonus]

Pay attention Ton.
The people revolt because lack of job, of money and freedom.
What religion has to do with that only Santa knows.

Religious and spiritual thinking, Rik.  The sort of old-fashioned and outmoded thinking that leads to suppression of rights and freedoms in favor of centralized power and control.  What did you think lead to the lack of jobs and money and freedom?

Not being dead allows you to advance but allow doesn't mean that you advance.

Correct.  It makes progress possible, and therefore is a sign of progress in itself.  Pretending that losing the option to advance is meaningless is so bizarre that the only reason to do so is because you don't want to admit you were wrong.

The reason why i am telling you that you got big expectation is because you pretend to have physical evidence of something that is abstract and not physical.

We've been through this.  You admit you have no way to prove what you are claiming, and I am pointing out that this means your claims are worthless.  Why you continue to make claims that you know are worthless is beyond me, but repeating them does not make them any less so.

I said that the official statistics do not take into account the real happening but only what goes on mainly in the western countries.

No, that isn't what you said.  You accepted statistics and numbers until they did not support your claims, then you decided that statistics can't be trusted because some man-on-the-street in a third-world country knows better.  That's stupid.  It's a sign of how desperate you are to hold onto your worldview.  Keep this in mind the next time you try to mention statistics.

[Little Rik]

Pay attention Ton.
The people revolt because lack of job, of money and freedom.
What religion has to do with that only Santa knows.

Religious and spiritual thinking, Rik.  The sort of old-fashioned and outmoded thinking that leads to suppression of rights and freedoms in favor of centralized power and control.  What did you think lead to the lack of jobs and money and freedom?

You are full of bull mate.
It is true that religious (forget about spiritual which you haven't got a clue about) dogmas lead to the........ suppression of rights and freedoms in favor of centralized power and control.......but what about
countries that are not motivated by religious dogmas and the situation is as bad as in countries dominated by religious dogmas?
Look at Latin America, most of Asia and Africa?
In these countries people also live in the sewer and yet religions have no or little influence so although
religion play a role in the Arab countries the main reason that people revolt is mainly lack of jobs, money and freedom.
As far as people could get a decent job and have enough money to live they wouldn't care less whether the ruler is an Aiatollah or any atheist Dick or Tom.

Not being dead allows you to advance but allow doesn't mean that you advance.

Correct.  It makes progress possible, and therefore is a sign of progress in itself.  Pretending that losing the option to advance is meaningless is so bizarre that the only reason to do so is because you don't want to admit you were wrong.

Wrong again Ton.
Being on your feet on safe land doesn't mean anything.
Here in Australia we got enough jobs to employ everybody but too many people don't want to work
and live on the dole on taxpayer money of course.
The opportunities are there for everybody and advancement is possible for everybody but some people
are not interested so it doesn't mean that you can progress even if the opportunities are there.

The reason why i am telling you that you got big expectation is because you pretend to have physical evidence of something that is abstract and not physical.

We've been through this.  You admit you have no way to prove what you are claiming, and I am pointing out that this means your claims are worthless.  Why you continue to make claims that you know are worthless is beyond me, but repeating them does not make them any less so.

Wrong again Ton.
I never said that....i have no way to prove what i am claiming.......
I instead said that physical evidence about something that is not physical is an absurd idea.
That doesn't mean that you can not get plenty of evidence provided that you deal with spirituality.
Cosmic consciousness is a spiritual concept therefore if you want to know whether it is real or not you got to deal with the same abstract item not with something physical-material.

I said that the official statistics do not take into account the real happening but only what goes on mainly in the western countries.

No, that isn't what you said.  You accepted statistics and numbers until they did not support your claims, then you decided that statistics can't be trusted because some man-on-the-street in a third-world country knows better.  That's stupid.  It's a sign of how desperate you are to hold onto your worldview. Keep this in mind the next time you try to mention statistics.

Not at all Ton.
We were talking about medical statistics not statistics in general.
Some statistics are correct while many other are not.
I usually stick with the issue while you put all sort of things in the same pot
making in this way an inedible soup.  

[Tonus]

It is true that religious (forget about spiritual which you haven't got a clue about) dogmas lead to the........ suppression of rights and freedoms in favor of centralized power and control.......but what about
countries that are not motivated by religious dogmas and the situation is as bad as in countries dominated by religious dogmas?
Look at Latin America, most of Asia and Africa?

Those three places are among the most heavily influenced by religious and 'spiritual' thinking on the planet.  What made you think otherwise?

(forget about spiritual which you haven't got a clue about)

No one has a clue about it.  You all just spout whatever you happen to find convenient even though you can't support a single statement.  It's funny to watch any of you clowns pretend that you've got the whole "spirituality thing" figured out.

Being on your feet on safe land doesn't mean anything.

That is stupid.  I'm sorry, but I can't put it any other way.  Read your own words a few times and maybe you'll understand why.  If you cannot understand why, then it's of no use to explain it to you.  It really is that stupid.

I never said that....i have no way to prove what i am claiming.......
I instead said that physical evidence about something that is not physical is an absurd idea.
That doesn't mean that you can not get plenty of evidence provided that you deal with spirituality.

Evidence.  You use that word.  It does not mean what you think it means.

Spirituality is whatever you decide that it is, just like all of the other theists.  When you guys disagree (which is often) you all pretend to be experts and the only ones who understand it.  But none of you have anything to back your claims.  When pressed, you admit that you have no physical evidence, which is the same as admitting that you cannot prove your claims.  I repeat: your claims are worthless.  They are crap.  They are garbage.  They are whatever you decide to pull out of your hat whenever it pleases you.

Not at all Ton.
We were talking about medical statistics not statistics in general.

Yeah, you're still wrong.  As amusing as it is to see you pretend that you only have a bias against "medical statistics," it's more likely that you just made that up to support your self-serving approach.  You made up a "fact," got called on it, and decided to lie in order to dismiss the actual facts.  It's not the first time that you've done that in this discussion.  If you need to lie and deceive in order to keep up your worldview, then it may be time to take a critical look at your worldview.

[Little Rik]

It is true that religious (forget about spiritual which you haven't got a clue about) dogmas lead to the........ suppression of rights and freedoms in favor of centralized power and control.......but what about
countries that are not motivated by religious dogmas and the situation is as bad as in countries dominated by religious dogmas?
Look at Latin America, most of Asia and Africa?

Those three places are among the most heavily influenced by religious and 'spiritual' thinking on the planet.  What made you think otherwise?

Are you joking or what?
Have you ever been in Colombia, Ghana, Vietnam or Papua just to mention few?
You just argue for the sake of argue, do you Ton?  

(forget about spiritual which you haven't got a clue about)

No one has a clue about it.  You all just spout whatever you happen to find convenient even though you can't support a single statement.  It's funny to watch any of you clowns pretend that you've got the whole "spirituality thing" figured out.

There is an old saying Ton, it goes...............if you want to know all you must first know yourself.
Where do you think the spirituality is located?
Is not on the moon or on Mars or inside churches, temples, synagogues or in the Masonic lodge.
It is within Ton.
How do you know that?
In the same way you know that under the visible iceberg there is a much bigger chunk also
below the outer knowledge there is a bigger knowledge which is also called superconscious mind.
You may have noticed that a lot of times you have to think and think again before you are able to come
up with a solution.
And solutions are there.
There within because solutions come from within.
The spirit within is none but you with your superconscious mind.
Consciousness is the same for you or for an insect.
The difference is however that you are more aware of who you are so spirituality is the effort
to open up this awareness of who you are.
What this has to do with religions only Santa knows.

Being on your feet on safe land doesn't mean anything.

That is stupid.  I'm sorry, but I can't put it any other way.  Read your own words a few times and maybe you'll understand why.  If you cannot understand why, then it's of no use to explain it to you.  It really is that stupid.

That is not stupid at all on.
Look at little Ton.
Ton has got his feet on solid ground but this gift given to him means absolutely nothing
if little Ton doesn't use his feet to walk forwards and to progress.
Little Ton can if he want to expand his consciousness but little Ton thinks that progress is outside
in the physical world not within so little Ton is not getting anywhere.
Little Ton still live in a fantasy dream thinking that by relying on physical knowledge only he can move his feet forwards and progress.

I never said that....i have no way to prove what i am claiming.......
I instead said that physical evidence about something that is not physical is an absurd idea.
That doesn't mean that you can not get plenty of evidence provided that you deal with spirituality.

Evidence.  You use that word.  It does not mean what you think it means.
Spirituality is whatever you decide that it is, just like all of the other theists.  When you guys disagree (which is often) you all pretend to be experts and the only ones who understand it.  But none of you have anything to back your claims.  When pressed, you admit that you have no physical evidence, which is the same as admitting that you cannot prove your claims.  I repeat: your claims are worthless.  They are crap.  They are garbage.  They are whatever you decide to pull out of your hat whenever it pleases you.

If my claims are garbage then why you need to think when the solution doesn't come in your mind straight away?
Every single time you think you rely on your subconscious mind which is the real you.
And you is the spirit within so in a way you also rely on spirituality but by not admitting
this truth you act like someone who try to drive a vehicle with the brakes on.
Is crazy Ton.  

Not at all Ton.
We were talking about medical statistics not statistics in general.

Yeah, you're still wrong.  As amusing as it is to see you pretend that you only have a bias against "medical statistics," it's more likely that you just made that up to support your self-serving approach.  You made up a "fact," got called on it, and decided to lie in order to dismiss the actual facts.  It's not the first time that you've done that in this discussion.  If you need to lie and deceive in order to keep up your worldview, then it may be time to take a critical look at your worldview.

Oh, poor Ton.
Do me a favor Ton.
The next time you happen to be around Australia please pop up to Little Rik place so he can show you
the medical facilities where he works.