Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[das_atheist]

I think this poll might have a skewed result.

[tonechaser77]

I did....i really did at one time. Strongly. But then I stopped. I started thinking. Then, I started rationalizing. I started thinking again. I started accepting. Then finally, I started actually learning. 

And here's what the bottom line was for me: 

I.)     There is a complete lack of solid evidence for god's existence.

II.)    Religion has failed to improve over time.
III.)   Religious beliefs are slippery - god is mysterious and cannot be explained but should be believed on.
IV.)    Supernatural phenomena have failed to stand up to rigorous testing.
V.)     Everything we may think the soul is, has attributable physical causes -  whatever consciousness is, is inextricably linked to our brains.
VI.)    The single strongest factor in determining what religion a person is part of?.... the religion they were brought up in.
VII.)   The weakness of religious arguments, explanations and apologetics. - all boil down to: either god exists because the bible says god exists or because of my experience
VIII.)  The inconsistency of world religions
IX.)     Natural explanations consistently explaining super-natural explanations. 
X.)      The increasingly diminishing god. - the perception of his "power" over time has diminished

[MattB]

Put up what exactly you fucking moron?

Remember:  Attack the post, not the poster. This applies to everyone before things get too heated!

I was thinking the same thing but as I am new here kept quiet

[Cyberman]

And you did it for nearly four years, too.

[Little Rik]

I am saying that the evidence and the conclusion must match.
If your conclusion differ from the evidence then your conclusion is crap. 

Evidence and conclusion are two different things.  The evidence can help you reach a conclusion.  You are simply repeating what I said, but in a less intelligible manner.

Why do some more reading when both the consciousness and the mind are just part of the same I.

Because if you do some reading, you'll understand why you are wrong.

Show me the book where it say the opposite.
By the way does your life and thinking rely all the time on what is written in the books or you build up some sort of intuitive consciousness where you draw up conclusions?

You keep on reading your books and i keep on expanding my self with yoga and at the end let us see who got more consciousness.

So you want me to continue to search out additional knowledge while you continue to strengthen the walls of your fortress of ignorance?  I'm happy to keep doing what I do, but why would you deliberately limit yourself that way?

So you came to the conclusion that the real knowledge is external like in books.
I got bad news for you Ton.
So far no one has ever find permanent peace of mind and happiness in an external way.
But don't worry Ton.
There is always time to wake up and learn.  

You only say that the mind is a product of the brain so when you say that you probably mean that consciousness and mind are two separate thing.

I already explained this.  You reject common definitions for common words, and this allows you to create a reality where they mean something else.  Not.  My.  Problem.

Cmon Ton tell me what is the difference between mind and consciousness or tell me that there is no difference if you like. 

By the way on 3 June when i write......
......The atheistic idea that the consciousness mind is a product of the brain will
have sooner or later be smashed in pieces......you didn't say that there is a difference between the two that is why i got the idea that you understand that mind and consciousness are the same part of the same thing with the difference that they are just different layer of the same I.

Then I am glad that I got this chance to clarify things, though it seems to be having no effect.  By the way, the understanding that the mind is a function of the brain is not an "atheistic idea."  It does not depend on atheism, it's just a conclusion reached based on evidence provided by experimentation and research.

Well, well Ton, it seems that these experts in physical-mental science have also a big understanding about what is not physical.
Is a bit like a plumber that try to fix electrical wires.
You never wonder what is going on these days. 

If you are such an expert in NDEs why don't you explain why so many people see God and not Santa?

Why?  Because we are influenced by our cultural depictions of god and heaven.  We are inundated with images and descriptions of heaven as a bright place in the clouds, of god as a being of almost pure light, of heaven as a place where our dead friends and relatives await us.  For societies with different ideas about god and heaven, their NDEs will reflect those ideas instead.  It's not surprising when long-held cultural icons are exactly what people "see" when they enter a chaotic dream state like an NDE.
PS- I don't have to be an expert in NDEs.  I just need to read the work of people who have done research on the mind.  The information is available if you are willing to step outside of your bubble.

In a way is true that most of the people who had a real NDE see what they had in their mind before that happen.
I don't think (as already explained) that God would ever interfere with their believes.
At the same time they all experience something really nice which is something that did not have in their mind before.
Once again you rely on what the researchers say.
Unfortunately these researchers are not qualified to understand the spiritual aspect of the human being.
Ton for your own good try to keep in mind my example of the electrician and the plumber.
It would help you a lot. 

Now is the time for you to read and learn a bit about NDEs.
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/...s_main.htm

That site does not teach anything about NDEs.  It simply catalogs the various experiences.  For comparison, why don't you read and learn a bit about alien encounters:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/currentyeararchives.html

If you don't pay enough attention is not my fault.
I do and i find a common understanding among most the NDEs.
The physical-mental pain is not there anymore and at the same time a sense of total peace in their consciousness take over.
Try again Ton but this time keep away from your mind your usual dogmas and prejudices.   

You see Ton, the problem with testing something abstract with something physical is not that easy.

Sure it is.  We see the results of conscious (and subconscious) thought in people all the time, because it's how we interact with one another.  Study the interactions under different conditions and in different environments, and you begin to understand how the mind works.  Study the physical effects on the brain of such mental activity, and you begin to map the mind onto the brain.

You miss something Ton.
The mind is not only the external mind or what we can perceive normally.
We can go deeper and deeper until we reach the super conscious mind
and the difference between the two can be dramatic.
External mind and super conscious mind are build up in the same sort of location
but there is a difference.
Just look at the planet earth.
Inside the planet there is magma but most of the people who live on the surface wouldn't know.
The same thing apply to our conscious mind.   

Again, these researcher think that by physical means they can understand something spiritual.

They're not studying something spiritual.  They're studying the brain, specifically the mind.

They surely do, that is why by studying something physical they are not in a position to understand spirituality which is outside the physicality.

Opsh Ton, sorry for prove you wrong.

So there were two scientists who, ten years apart, felt that they were making progress on a malaria vaccine, and you consider this to be the same as "science said it got rid of malaria"?
You know, I don't think you are consciously misrepresenting things in order to support your beliefs.  I think that you've created a delusion and reinforced it so diligently that your own subconscious mind is misreading and misunderstanding what you read in order to protect your belief system.  You yourself admitted above that you'd rather turn inward for guidance than read books or learn from others.  You've placed yourself in a bubble that you constantly reinforce by shaping what you read to support you, even if it means twisting it into a different meaning.  It's a fascinating example of how you can train your subconscious to trap you within your beliefs.  An unhealthy example, to be sure.  But fascinating nonetheless.

Ton, Ton what i am going to do with you?
First you don't believe me.
Then after i show you the evidence you try to mess up the whole argument with the usual delusion on my part.
I try to help you Ton but you make it very difficult.
Why are you so happy to go around and around the millstone and getting nowhere? 

So you reckon that all those doctors that declared a patient dead are all impostors?

Nope.  Just mistaken.

Gee, that is terrible Ton.
Studying medicine years and years and not knowing whether the bloke is alive or dead.
What you suggest Ton?
Shell we put you in charge for the universities or what? 

Wrong again Ton.
Suppose you are God.

See, this is what I mean.  You constantly ask for evidence for what I say, but everything you said after that line is made up.  You have zero evidence for it.  When you need for something to be true in order to maintain your belief system, you discard the need for evidence and simply accept whatever made-up story works best for you.
Your explanation is made up.  You have no evidence for it.  None.

You believe what is written in books but your books relate only to physical evidence.
Can you say that consciousness is physical?
You see how you keep on forgetting the analogy of the electrician and the plumber. 

Your are guessing Ton.

You say this right after a paragraph of completely made-up nonsense that you wrote to support an untenable belief.  But yes, when it comes to the development of artificial intelligence, I am making guesses.  Educated and informed guesses, but guesses nonetheless.

You remind me when i try to start a small business and a wise bloke said to me......remember that  over 90% of the business go broke within the first year.
Well Ton what can i say.
Maybe your guessing may turn correct but the chances are very very slim.   

I have been trying to get some philosophical though out of you guys for the last few years but is like to find some gold up in the clouds.

I meant your personal philosophy.  Your problems in the philosophy forum seem to have more to do with your self-serving definition of what constitutes philosophy.

Are you prepared to start a philosophy thread with me? 
By the way you can always get the backing of your mates if you want. 

In the meantime i use my precious time to build up the inner self.

You mean to fortify the walls of your bubble.  So much effort for the sole purpose of keeping yourself ignorant.  That's sad.

You seem not to pay much attention Ton.
I knock down those who try to say that man is omnivore.
I challenge the so called expert in philosophy.
No one show up.
It clearly show that no one here knows what the conscious mind is.
So where is your evidence that i keep myself ignorant? 

I am sure you would become very famous.

The things I've been telling you about the mind and the brain are the results of research done by others for more than a century.  None of this is new.  It may seem new to you, but you admit that you spend your time building your inner self at the expense of learning anything from the rest of the world.  Cutting yourself off from knowledge just to keep a delusion going seems self-defeating, but it's your life.

Actually my life show that i keep a balance among body-mind and spirit.
Do you Ton?

[Tonus]

Show me the book where it say the opposite.

It's called a dictionary.

By the way does your life and thinking rely all the time on what is written in the books or you build up some sort of intuitive consciousness where you draw up conclusions?

There are numerous ways to learn. One of the most efficient and effective is by reading. One of the least effective is by trying to "build up some sort of intuitive consciousness where you draw up conclusions."

So you came to the conclusion that the real knowledge is external like in books.

It's a pretty obvious conclusion to come to.

I got bad news for you Ton.
So far no one has ever find permanent peace of mind and happiness in an external way.

To date, no one has ever found permanent peace of mind and happiness, period. Those are transitory states, which we continually work to reach and maintain.

Cmon Ton tell me what is the difference between mind and consciousness or tell me that there is no difference if you like.

I already have. The mind is a function of the brain. Consciousness refers to a state of awareness. Why are you asking me these questions again and again? You do know that there are dictionaries online, right? Oh, I almost forgot... you look within for these things. It's no wonder you're so ignorant.

Well, well Ton, it seems that these experts in physical-mental science have also a big understanding about what is not physical.

That's what research and experimentation does. It works far better than looking within.

Once again you rely on what the researchers say.
Unfortunately these researchers are not qualified to understand the spiritual aspect of the human being.

As I said before, they are not studying "the spiritual aspect of the human being." And since you have claimed that this is something that science cannot possibly study, it should come as no surprise. What apparently is coming as a surprise to you is that the researchers are learning all about the mind and the brain and NDEs without wasting any time on "intuitive" or "spiritual" science. Let me know when the intuitional and spiritual researchers reach a consensus on their particular fields and publish their ground-breaking work.

If you don't pay enough attention is not my fault.
I do and i find a common understanding among most the NDEs.

Made-up nonsense is not a common understanding. And it's not what you get from paying attention. It's what you get from reaching your conclusion before you search for answers and then 'looking within' instead of learning from people who actually did the research.

The mind is not only the external mind or what we can perceive normally.
We can go deeper and deeper until we reach the super conscious mind

Once again, when the INternational Association of iNuitional sciEntists (INANE) publish their ground-breaking work on the super conscious mind, you make sure and let us know. Until then, we know about the conscious and subconscious parts of the mind and are learning how they work.

They surely do, that is why by studying something physical they are not in a position to understand spirituality which is outside the physicality.

That's because the spiritual aspect of it does not exist. But again, you and your buddies are free to publish your findings and shock the world.

Ton, Ton what i am going to do with you?
First you don't believe me.
Then after i show you the evidence you try to mess up the whole argument with the usual delusion on my part.

I don't believe you because you state nonsense and your "evidence" is just additional nonsensical claims. Do you even understand what "evidence" means? Have you EVER opened up a dictionary, or are you 'looking within' for your definitions? I don't believe you because you're unreal.

Gee, that is terrible Ton.
Studying medicine years and years and not knowing whether the bloke is alive or dead.

Maybe they need to study a bit harder. Not my problem. But if a doctor says you are dead and you are not, then it doesn't take a university director to recognize that you made a mistake. How is this stuff difficult for you to comprehend?

You believe what is written in books but your books relate only to physical evidence.

And you keep pretending that there is some spiritual evidence but you admit no one can produce it or detect it or study it. So I'll go right on trusting the people who actually can show their work instead of the people who admit that they have nothing but claims that they cannot back up.

Maybe your guessing may turn correct but the chances are very very slim.

Sure.

Are you prepared to start a philosophy thread with me?

You... really don't understand a word that I'm saying, do you?

You seem not to pay much attention Ton.
I knock down those who try to say that man is omnivore.
I challenge the so called expert in philosophy.

No, really. You have absolutely no idea what I was referring to, do you? You are truly bizarre, rik,

So where is your evidence that i keep myself ignorant?

Well, just in this most recent exchange you have ridiculed book-learning because you prefer to turn within. Which is a pretty effective way of being ignorant. In other words, YOU are the evidence that you keep yourself ignorant. And you do so proudly, which is just crazy. But whatever floats your boat.

Actually my life show that i keep a balance among body-mind and spirit.
Do you Ton?

Yes. I'm the most balanced person of all time. Ever. In the history of this reality and the next. I'm, like... more balanced than is possible.

[Little Rik]

You don't get it Ton, do you?
What i did ridiculed was not the book-learning but the fact that it is hilarious to pretend to understand something abstract as the consciousness by studying books
written by people not engaged into spirituality.
Books are very good as far as they stick with what they know best.
I do read Sarkar books because he is (was) an expert into spirituality but not the books written by someone who is not engaged in spirituality.
It would be meaningless that is why i did give you as an example the electrician and the plumber.
People should stick to what they know.
As they try to do something that are not trained to they for sure will cause trouble.
Consciousness is abstract by nature.
Our physical senses can not possibly grasp its essence.
Consciousness is the boss and the senses are his workers.
The brain too is at the disposal of the boss.
It provide what the consciousness need to function but it is not in a position to be above the boss-consciousness.
But don't worry too much Ton, one day you will come to this conclusion.
The history is full of gullible people.
Just few hundreds years ago most people thought that the planet earth was the center of the universe. 
You are not alone Ton. 

[Napoléon]

[Tonus]

People should stick to what they know.

The people who have been making discoveries about the mind and the brain were studying what they know, and learning more as they went along. It may seem as if they are turning your world on its ear, but much of this stuff was starting to be understood more than a century ago and much of the present work is building on research that is 30-50 years old. This isn't something that they're beginning to piece together; it's the result of decades of ongoing research and experimentation.

In other words, you are clinging to beliefs that were already becoming obsolete when you first heard about them. Today they only survive because so many people stubbornly hang on to them in the face of growing evidence to the contrary. A few hundred years ago people may have believed that the earth was the center of the universe. A few hundred years from now they'll be mocking us for believing in spirits and souls. Your gods are being trampled under the inexorable march of progress.

[Little Rik]

People should stick to what they know.

The people who have been making discoveries about the mind and the brain were studying what they know, and learning more as they went along.  It may seem as if they are turning your world on its ear, but much of this stuff was starting to be understood more than a century ago and much of the present work is building on research that is 30-50 years old.  This isn't something that they're beginning to piece together; it's the result of decades of ongoing research and experimentation.

In other words, you are clinging to beliefs that were already becoming obsolete when you first heard about them.  Today they only survive because so many people stubbornly hang on to them in the face of growing evidence to the contrary.  A few hundred years ago people may have believed that the earth was the center of the universe.  A few hundred years from now they'll be mocking us for believing in spirits and souls.  Your gods are being trampled under the inexorable march of progress.

You are absolutely hilarious Ton.
With the capitalist system on the brink of total collapse you reckon that we are progressing?
You got to be joking mate.
But let us stick to your researchers.
Oh, they date back a century ago!
Well, well Ton, Shiva date back not hundreds but few thousand years and his system is still valid these days.
But let us see who will have the last laugh.
Those who guess that the mind is a product of the brain or those who say the opposite?
You want to bet Ton and see whether the vehicle produce the driver or the driver produce or better say get inserted into the right vehicle (body-brain)?
How much are you prepared to bet Ton?