Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[Cyberman]

Do you Iat?

I'm latting as we speak. You should try it - it's fun and they can't touch you for it.

[Little Rik]

1) What i have to do with religion only Santa knows.

The phrase "six of one, half-dozen of the other" applies here.  What you describe is not different from religion.

Do you really want to know what .......applies here?
It apply the old saying................PUT UP OR SHUT UP so please give examples that spirituality is not different from religions.

2) If i make statistic is in relation to your distorted view that technologies take the human race outside the sewer
and into a better future.

Made-up statistics to support made-up claims does not make either of them true.

If you don't believe me that hardly 2% of total world population live a decent life i suggest you to do some researches.
Have you ever been in Africa, Latin America and Asia or you only jump from NY to London and back? 

 The world as it is today would not be possible without technology.  We would be small nomadic groups scraping for survival every day and with lifespans in the 20s or 30s.  That might still be the case in some corners of the world................

You are in a terrible mental confusion Ton.
You are confusing staying afloat with progress.
It is natural that the technology has got to come up with newer and newer discoveries.
What this has got to do with progress only Santa knows.
Progress as i already said is when a step forward is not erased or cancelled by a step backwards.
Challenges come one after the other with no stop in sight.
As soon as you get rid of a problem a new one pop up.
It never stop that is way a person with a little bit of brain matter would understand that in this
physical world there can not be any progress at all.
A life-jacket that save someone is not progress.
It just put that person who was drowning back on his feet again so no progress is ever made.

but most people live a much better life.  Your unwillingness to accept reality does not alter reality.

Garbage.
Go in Africa, Asia and Latin America to find out whether these people live better than in the past.
Please Ton try to think wisely before you come up with this non sense. 

Ton, superstitions have some weight into keeping human race in the sewer.

Yes, superstition is one of the mental crutches that people need to shake off in order to live better.  Again, it is one of those quirks that religion and similar thinking help to keep alive, through the idea that there's something more out there than what we can detect.  Time and again, what we find is that if we eliminate that sort of backwards thinking, progress arrives more quickly.

Stop here Ton.
Before you come up with similar non sense explain what is the difference between religion and spirituality.
You claim that you know so please explain. 

[Little Rik]

Do you Iat?

I'm latting as we speak. You should try it - it's fun and they can't touch you for it.

Gee, Stim.
Your philosophy behind this sentence is top.
I wish you would be my philosopher master so i could learn all has got to be learn. 

[Tonus]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP so please give examples that spirituality is not different from religions.

Both rely on mysticism and woo and the certainty that there is more to the world than what we can detect physically, and that these things lead us to a greater meaning and purpose in life.  Or to put it another way: there are a number of people here who claim to "believe in god and not religion" and they don't sound any different from the people who follow a religion.  The only way you can tell them apart is that some of them insist that they aren't religious.

If you don't believe me that hardly 2% of total world population live a decent life i suggest you to do some researches.

I notice that you keep changing your claims.  First it was that science had claimed to eradicate malaria, then it was that malaria was the leading killer, then it was that the capitalist system is on the brink of collapse, then it was that 80% are "floating in the sewer" and 2% are doing well, and so on.  I also notice that you never provide a single data point for any of your claims, yet you keep asking me to disprove your claims as if that is somehow my responsibility.  I explained exactly how we are progressing through technology and science.  It's such a straightforward argument that it's not in dispute.  If you want to claim that science isn't doing enough to help the world, well... religion has had thousands of years, and so far it hasn't accomplished much, if 98% of the world is up to its collective throat in shit.

You are confusing staying afloat with progress.

Sometimes I forget that you like to redefine words to suit your purposes, thus rendering any discussion moot.  Thanks for reminding me.  I did not forget that you also have a habit of restating points that were already addressed, as if repeating something wrong will somehow make it less wrong.  Pro-tip: it doesn't.  Making even dumber comments like "physical world there can not be any progress at all" just makes it clear that you need to step away from the adult table and go find a dictionary before you try to make any more replies.

Go in Africa, Asia and Latin America to find out whether these people live better than in the past.
Please Ton try to think wisely before you come up with this non sense.

Splitting up my comment in order to try and make a point is dishonest, and doesn't address the point.  As I stated, conditions all around the world are better than they were in the past, and the places that are lagging the most are the ones in the throes of religious and superstitious thinking.  If you can't address the point, maybe it's better if you just ignore it.  You should be embarrassed to try to erect such a clumsy strawman.

Before you come up with similar non sense explain what is the difference between religion and spirituality.

See above.  To people who don't have to prop up the confusing and contradictory house of cards that is religious and superstitious thinking, religion and spirituality and mysticism all work the same way: by insisting on the existence of a realm or realms that cannot be detected or proven except by methods that cannot be falsified and covered by rituals and habits and thought exercises that serve to reinforce such fallacious ideas.

I'd ask you to explain how they are different, but the truth is that you cannot do so without falling into a circular explanation.  Feel free to try, though.  It's not as if this thread hasn't been entertaining enough.

[Little Rik]

PUT UP OR SHUT UP so please give examples that spirituality is not different from religions.

Both rely on mysticism and woo and the certainty that there is more to the world than what we can detect physically, and that these things lead us to a greater meaning and purpose in life.  Or to put it another way: there are a number of people here who claim to "believe in god and not religion" and they don't sound any different from the people who follow a religion.  The only way you can tell them apart is that some of them insist that they aren't religious.

The believe that there is God and therefore a purpose in life is the only thing that spirituality and religions agree to.
All the rest is different.
Religions look outside while spirituality look inside to get to God.
Religions expect and pray for the daily bread from God while spirituality doesn't.
Religions (except Buddhism and Hinduism) believe in hell or permanent punishment while spirituality doesn't.
Most religions think that they are the only chosen one while spirituality believe that at the end everybody will get there.
There to God.
Most religions (except Buddhism and Hinduism) believe that if you go to paradise you will be the same Dick and Tom but never God
while spirituality believe that you will merge into the ocean of bliss and therefore merge in God and be God.
People who follow spirituality keep well away from meat eating while most religions don't really care what you eat.
I could continue on and on Tom as the differences are really huge.

If you don't believe me that hardly 2% of total world population live a decent life i suggest you to do some researches.

I notice that you keep changing your claims.  First it was that science had claimed to eradicate malaria, then it was that malaria was the leading killer, then it was that the capitalist system is on the brink of collapse, then it was that 80% are "floating in the sewer" and 2% are doing well, and so on.  I also notice that you never provide a single data point for any of your claims, yet you keep asking me to disprove your claims as if that is somehow my responsibility.  I explained exactly how we are progressing through technology and science.  It's such a straightforward argument that it's not in dispute.  If you want to claim that science isn't doing enough to help the world, well... religion has had thousands of years, and so far it hasn't accomplished much, if 98% of the world is up to its collective throat in shit.

1) Ton, i am NOT dispute the fact that science and technology advance all the time.
I am instead dispute that this advance is able to take humanity out the sewer.
Is this so difficult to understand?
As one challenge is solved a new one and more difficult one arise in a never ending show.
How the hell can there be any progress when you never get at a goal of life?
Just imagine a tour the France where the cyclists never get in Paris.
Just keep on pedaling and riding on and on and on until they die and never get there.
That is exactly what happen with human life materially, physically and mentally speaking.

2) Talking about malaria i read report such as this one below that is why i said what i said.

Statistics
Malaria is one of the most severe public health problems worldwide. It is a leading cause of death and disease in many developing countries, where young children and pregnant women are the groups most affected. According to the World Health Organization’s World Malaria Report 2013 and the Global Malaria Action Plan
http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/malaria_world...mpact.html

3) I did indeed show you that scientists studying malaria declared that their discoveries would put and end to malaria which it didn't happen.
You read the article Ton so please don't talk bullshit to me.

You are confusing staying afloat with progress.

Sometimes I forget that you like to redefine words to suit your purposes, thus rendering any discussion moot.  Thanks for reminding me.  I did not forget that you also have a habit of restating points that were already addressed, as if repeating something wrong will somehow make it less wrong.  Pro-tip: it doesn't. Making even dumber comments like "physical world there can not be any progress at all" just makes it clear that you need to step away from the adult table and go find a dictionary before you try to make any more replies.

If i am restating points is because you tend to come up with the same bull time and time again.
Just one example.
After you did not believe that science declare malaria eradicate and then proven wrong i did show you a statement that scientists just said that.
This is clear evidence.
Instead to accept the obvious you keep on coming back again and again that i am talking crap so again and again i have to restate the same point.
Is this my fault or yours? 

Go in Africa, Asia and Latin America to find out whether these people live better than in the past.
Please Ton try to think wisely before you come up with this non sense.

Splitting up my comment in order to try and make a point is dishonest, and doesn't address the point.  As I stated, conditions all around the world are better than they were in the past, and the places that are lagging the most are the ones in the throes of religious and superstitious thinking.  If you can't address the point, maybe it's better if you just ignore it.  You should be embarrassed to try to erect such a clumsy strawman.

Wrong again Ton.
You can say that the conditions today are different from the past but that is where the judgement end.
To say that today are better than in the past is wrong.
In the past the fruits taste sweet, today they are almost tasteless.
In the past a man could have sex up in the old age, today at the age of 40-45 they need viagra to have sex.
In the past their bodies were strong so they could stand extreme conditions, today humans are weak.
We have the computer sure but that lead us to sit down instead of exercise our bodies.
We have cars but again we walk less and less and our bodies get weaker every day.
Can't you see Ton that for every single step forward there is a step backwards?
I just can't understand why you persist to believe in what doesn't exist in reality. 

Before you come up with similar non sense explain what is the difference between religion and spirituality.

See above.  To people who don't have to prop up the confusing and contradictory house of cards that is religious and superstitious thinking, religion and spirituality and mysticism all work the same way: by insisting on the existence of a realm or realms that cannot be detected or proven except by methods that cannot be falsified and covered by rituals and habits and thought exercises that serve to reinforce such fallacious ideas.

I'd ask you to explain how they are different, but the truth is that you cannot do so without falling into a circular explanation.  Feel free to try, though.  It's not as if this thread hasn't been entertaining enough.

You can say that God can not be proved to exist in a physical way and that is obvious.
How can the abstract can be felt by non abstract?
If we go along the same logic then we also could say that the mind doesn't exist because we can not
feel it with our physical senses but we know it exist because our consciousness tell us otherwise.
This is how the system works Ton.
It is our consciousness that tell us what is there and what is not there.
And it is a strong consciousness that is able to tell us what lie behind the physical reality.
But what can you do Ton if you never bother about extending and amplify your consciousness? 

[Tonus]

The believe that there is God and therefore a purpose in life is the only thing that spirituality and religions agree to.
All the rest is different.

The funny thing about this is that you follow this up by defining spirituality by its systems of belief.  In other words, you define spirituality as a religion, while claiming it is different from religion.  That's hysterical.

I am instead dispute that this advance is able to take humanity out the sewer.

You'll have to define that in order for it to mean anything.  As I already stated, we enjoy longer and healthier lives with far more leisure time than we ever had in the past, except for those societies that prefer to remain in the sewer.

As one challenge is solved a new one and more difficult one arise in a never ending show.

Right.  If we are facing new problems, then it means we have solved the old ones.  The new problems are, in most cases, either a side-effect of that progress or a side-effect of backwards thinking that tries to reject progress.

2) Talking about malaria i read report such as this one below that is why i said what i said.

Here is what you said, in post #1295:

Ages ago they say that they got rid of malaria.
After they failed again and again malaria is still the No1 killer globally speaking.

Scientists did NOT say that they got rid of malaria, and malaria is NOT the number 1 killer "globally speaking."  You were wrong.  Your sources did not say either of the things that you said.  You either lack reading comprehension or are a dishonest person.  You decide which.

You read the article Ton so please don't talk bullshit to me.

Don't project, it makes you look like more of a jerk or more of an idiot, depending on which choice you make above.

Instead to accept the obvious you keep on coming back again and again that i am talking crap so again and again i have to restate the same point.
Is this my fault or yours?

See above.  I'm accusing you of talking crap because you are talking crap.  Repeating the crap that you are saying doesn't make it smell any different.  You were wrong on both points above and you've tried to deal with it by changing your claim.  This is an internet forum, Rik: your words are still there for people to read.

Can't you see Ton that for every single step forward there is a step backwards?

I addressed this before: if our progress was one step forward for each step backwards, we would have gone extinct or remained in small nomadic tribes in a limited area of the world with very short lifespans.  Claiming that we are not making progress because fruits don't taste the same or old men can't have sex is dumb and pointless.

It also brings up a different point: it seems as if your claim is that the world is in a shitty and horrible state, and that this somehow is evidence of the existence of god.  Or perhaps that the state of the world makes you wish that there was a god.  Both are poor arguments.  Neither the concept of god as a screw-up nor your burning desire for a Deus Ex Machina to exist will cause a god to pop into existence.

You can say that God can not be proved to exist in a physical way and that is obvious.

That's YOUR claim.  I am just pointing out how flawed it is.

How can the abstract can be felt by non abstract?

That is YOUR problem, not mine.  I'm not the one claiming that god exists, YOU are.  I'm not the one who thinks his imaginary friend (and only his, not anyone else's) is real, YOU are.  YOU are saying that being impossible to detect is a feature of your god, and not a bug.  So by all means, try to explain how your god is any different from any other fake character that people have invented.

If we go along the same logic then we also could say that the mind doesn't exist because we can not
feel it with our physical senses but we know it exist because our consciousness tell us otherwise.

We are mapping out the mind, which is just a function of the brain.  Consciousness refers to a state of awareness; it is not just another word for "mind" or "soul."  You'll never make progress if you cling to wrong ideas that you can't even define properly.

[Cyberman]

Master the philosophy behind this, Rik...

[Little Rik]

The believe that there is God and therefore a purpose in life is the only thing that spirituality and religions agree to.
All the rest is different.

The funny thing about this is that you follow this up by defining spirituality by its systems of belief.  In other words, you define spirituality as a religion, while claiming it is different from religion.  That's hysterical.

When the believe is backed up by evidence what's wrong with it?
When the practice lead to more and more consciousness you understand that there are no limits
to it and something unlimited is better known as God among people who engage in spirituality.
Religions on the other hand do not practice spirituality.
All they do is praying to God for the daily bread and paradise. 

I am instead dispute that this advance is able to take humanity out the sewer.

You'll have to define that in order for it to mean anything.  As I already stated, we enjoy longer and healthier lives with far more leisure time than we ever had in the past, except for those societies that prefer to remain in the sewer.

Nobody prefer to remain in the sewer Ton.
If you born under a corrupted dictatorship you either put up with the sewer or you die in the effort to get rid of the rotten dictator.
You have no choices.
Now considering that most of the world population live under corrupted dictatorship or corrupted so called democracies then healthy life and progress are
just a dream. 

As one challenge is solved a new one and more difficult one arise in a never ending show.

Right.  If we are facing new problems, then it means we have solved the old ones.  The new problems are, in most cases, either a side-effect of that progress or a side-effect of backwards thinking that tries to reject progress.

Wrong again Ton.
Take the tour the France as mention in the previous post.
Life is like this tour that never get to Paris.
There is something that make the distance longer and longer.
You think that by getting in one place at the end of the day you have accomplished something.
I got bad news for you Ton.
Someone is playing with you.
You think that you have reduced the distance that separate you from Paris but someone is putting a new
journey in front of you and when you have struggled to get to that new finishing line a new journey is put once again in front of you.
Day after day, year after year in a never ending frustrating show.
So where the progress suppose to be?





Let us see who is dishonest.
Here scientists clearly say that according to them they got rid of malaria.

Recent malaria history is fraught with grand pronouncements that turned out to be baseless. "MALARIA VACCINE IS NEAR," announced a New York Times headline in 1984. "This is the last major hurdle," said one U.S. scientist quoted in the article. "There is no question now that we will have a vaccine. The rest is fine-tuning." Seven years of fine-tuning later, another Times headline summarized the result: "EFFORT TO FIGHT MALARIA APPEARS TO HAVE FAILED." In the late 1990s, Colombian immunologist Manuel Patarroyo claimed, with much media fanfare, that he had found the answer to malaria with his vaccine, SPf-66. Early results were tantalizing, but follow-up studies in Thailand showed it worked no better than a placebo.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/07...text6.html


Ton, these guys are SCIENTISTS.
You say that you believe in science, didn't you Ton?
The same dishonesty you show when you said that the doctors that declared people dead in the NDEs were wrong.
So what the hell are you talking about?
You say that you believe in science but when the science goes against your dogmatic believes then science is not good anymore.
Ton, this is DISHONESTY.
Now let us see the next point.
You say that i talk bull when i say that malaria is the major killer or No 1 killer.
Here below i show you a report from

http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/malaria_world...mpact.html

It say.................Malaria is one of the most severe public health problems worldwide. It is a leading cause of  in many developing countries.......

Here it is important to understand that in poor countries people don't have access to hospitals or medical care so most of the cases go unreported
which simple means that the statistics that we have in the better developed countries are faulty.
And again means that malaria is likely to be the No 1 killer as i believe to be the case.
As you can see Ton i didn't make up the story

I addressed this before: if our progress was one step forward for each step backwards, we would have gone extinct or remained in small nomadic tribes in a limited area of the world with very short lifespans.  Claiming that we are not making progress because fruits don't taste the same or old men can't have sex is dumb and pointless.
It also brings up a different point: it seems as if your claim is that the world is in a shitty and horrible state, and that this somehow is evidence of the existence of god.  Or perhaps that the state of the world makes you wish that there was a god.  Both are poor arguments.  Neither the concept of god as a screw-up nor your burning desire for a Deus Ex Machina to exist will cause a god to pop into existence.

What you say is UNscientific.
It is a reality that a step forward always go hand in hand with a step backwards.
The monitor that you are watching right now deliver you radiations and by sitting down you also get weaker plus plus all the rest.
Didn't i tell you Ton?
You show me a single item that come with no step backwards and i will cover you in pure 24 carat gold. 

That is YOUR problem, not mine.  I'm not the one claiming that god exists, YOU are.  I'm not the one who thinks his imaginary friend (and only his, not anyone else's) is real, YOU are.  YOU are saying that being impossible to detect is a feature of your god, and not a bug.  So by all means, try to explain how your god is any different from any other fake character that people have invented.

Actually even a fake character can become real.
According to yoga you become what you desire to be.
That is how the mind works.
A shark money lender will in the next life turn into money.
A carnivorous person will turn up into a cat or a lion.
A spiritual person will turn into God.
But of course you are free to believe otherwise Ton. 

If we go along the same logic then we also could say that the mind doesn't exist because we can not
feel it with our physical senses but we know it exist because our consciousness tell us otherwise.

We are mapping out the mind, which is just a function of the brain.  Consciousness refers to a state of awareness; it is not just another word for "mind" or "soul."  You'll never make progress if you cling to wrong ideas that you can't even define properly.

What about you Ton.
How can you make any progress if you..........cling to wrong ideas.......such as believe  in untested guessing that the mind is a function of the brain?

[Tonus]

Religions on the other hand do not practice spirituality.

This will come as a shock to most religions, for whom spirituality is a primary and critical component.  You keep claiming that they're different, yet your explanations simply show how they are the same.

If you born under a corrupted dictatorship you either put up with the sewer or you die in the effort to get rid of the rotten dictator.
You have no choices.

They DO have choices, especially today.  People have overthrown oppressive governments in the past, and people have escaped oppressive governments in the past.  Most people make the choice to not only remain under such a regime, but to work to support it.  This is where religion can be at its worst, in that it either supports such regimes, is used by such regimes to maintain control, or is used by the people as a way to tolerate their oppressors.

Attitudes like yours are why so many dictatorships still thrive in the modern age.

You think that by getting in one place at the end of the day you have accomplished something.
I got bad news for you Ton.
Someone is playing with you.

Wow.  How miserable and bitter must your life be, that you never feel as if you are making progress?  If scientists had your approach to things, we would still be living in caves and thinking that rain was caused by the gods weeping.  More likely, this is another case where you redefine a term in order to suit a point you are trying to make.  At this point it's clear that you're being dishonest just to avoid conceding a point.

Let us see who is dishonest.

You are.  And this part is a clear example.  You deleted the part of my post that you are responding to, before you quote the sources that you claim support what you said.  This is something you haven't done in any of your previous posts during this discussion.  Lets bring back those quotes and compare them directly:

YOU SAID: Ages ago
YOUR QUOTED SOURCE SAID: Recent malaria history is fraught with grand pronouncements that turned out to be baseless.
LIE NUMBER 1: "Ages ago" is not "recent."

YOU SAID: they say that they got rid of malaria.
YOUR QUOTED SOURCE SAID: "MALARIA VACCINE IS NEAR," announced a New York Times headline in 1984. "This is the last major hurdle," said one U.S. scientist quoted in the article. "There is no question now that we will have a vaccine.
LIE NUMBER 2: They did not say "they got rid of malaria."  They said they were certain they would have a vaccine soon.

YOU SAID: malaria is still the No1 killer globally speaking.
YOUR QUOTED SOURCE SAID: It is a leading cause of death and disease in many developing countries.
LIE NUMBER 3: Being ONE OF the leading causes of death in SOME parts of the world is not "the number 1 killer globally speaking."

So not only were you dishonest in your initial claims, you were dishonest in your interpretation of your sources, and you dishonestly tried changing your claims several times in order to try and cover for your initial dishonesty.  Now you deleted the portion of my post from your quote in order to make another attempt to cover for your dishonesty with MORE dishonesty!  Did I NOT explain to you that your posts are still visible and your lies quite plain for all to see?  Your lack of character is shocking, in light of the persona that you pretend to aspire to in your posts.

It is a reality that a step forward always go hand in hand with a step backwards.
The monitor that you are watching right now deliver you radiations and by sitting down you also get weaker plus plus all the rest.

Errr... no.  The monitor represents considerable progress on a number of levels.  Your "step back" regarding radiation is so minimal that we can't even find a health risk in spite of ongoing research.  Second, that monitor allows me to find information on the internet on how to eat better, exercise better, and live better, so that I can counteract the "sitting down and getting weaker" part as well.  Like I said, lots and lots of steps forward for every step backwards.

But of course you are free to believe otherwise Ton.

This condescension in light of how wrong you've been so far is just... bizarre.

What about you Ton.
How can you make any progress if you..........cling to wrong ideas.......such as believe  in untested guessing that the mind is a function of the brain?

Two things:

Science progresses because it does not cling to wrong ideas.  Even when it comes to a conclusion that appears correct, people keep testing and working and researching, and often we overturn old theories and replace them with better ones.

Second, the fact that the mind is a function of the brain is not an untested guess.  The beliefs and claims that you keep making about gods and spirits and souls?  THOSE are untested guesses.  I think it's very telling that you place more trust in your own beliefs based on untested guesses than you do on scientific research that must produce testable claims and verifiable results.  You have it all backwards, and you appear willing to lie to both yourself and to others to maintain your delusion.  The world is going to pass you by, Rik.

[Homeless Nutter]

[...]
I wish you would be my philosopher master so i could learn all has got to be learn. [...]

Yeah, no - you're not fit for philosophy. That's for smart people. Take up sports, or something. And maybe some English lessons(?)...