I'm currently reading Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol. I and came across this curious passage in ch. XXI, relating to Eusebius' counseling of emperor Constantine: 

Quote:In a very long discourse, which is still extant, the royal preacher expatiates on the various proofs of religion; but he dwells with peculiar complacency on the Sibylline verses, and the fourth eclogue of Virgil. Forty years before the birth of Christ, the Mantuan bard, as if inspired by the celestial muse of Isaiah, had celebrated, with all the pomp of oriental metaphor, the return of the Virgin, the fall of the serpent, the approaching birth of a god-like child, the offspring of the great Jupiter, who should expiate the guilt of human kind, and govern the peaceful universe with the virtues of his father; the rise and appearance of an heavenly race, a primitive nation throughout the world: and the gradual restoration of the innocence and felicity of the golden age. The poet was perhaps unconscious of the secret sense and object of these sublime predictions, which have been so unworthily applied to the infant son of a consul or a triumvir: but, if a more splendid, and indeed specious, interpretation of the fourth eclogue contributed to the conversion of the first Christian emperor, Virgil may deserve to be ranked among the most successful missionaries of the gospel.

That led me to look up the Sibylline verses and Virgil's fourth eclogue. The former is included in the Oration of Constantine, which is preserved by Eusebius:

Quote:My desire, however, is to derive even from foreign sources a testimony to the Divine nature of Christ. For on such testimony it is evident that even those who blaspheme his name must acknowledge that he is God, and the Son of God if indeed they will accredit the words of those whose sentiments coincided with their own.

The Erythræan Sybil, then, who herself assures us that she lived in the sixth generation after the flood, was a priestess of Apollo, who wore the sacred fillet in imitation of the God she served, who guarded also the tripod encompassed with the serpent's folds, and returned prophetic answers to those who approached her shrine; having been devoted by the folly of her parents to this service, a service productive of nothing good or noble, but only of indecent fury, such as we find recorded in the case of Daphne. On one occasion, however, having rushed into the sanctuary of her vain superstition, she became really filled with inspiration from above, and declared in prophetic verses the future purposes of God; plainly indicating the advent of Jesus by the initial letters of these verses, forming an acrostic in these words: Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour, Cross.

The verses themselves are as follows:

Judgment! Earth's oozing pores shall mark the day;
Earth's heavenly king his glories shall display:
Sovereign of all, exalted on his throne,
Unnumbered multitudes their God shall own;
Shall see their Judge, with mingled joy and fear,

Crowned with his saints, in human form appear.
How vain, while desolate earth's glories lie,
Riches, and pomp, and man's idolatry!
In that dread hour, when Nature's fiery doom
Startles the slumb'ring tenants of the tomb,
Trembling all flesh shall stand; each secret wile,

Sins long forgotten, thoughts of guilt and guile,
Open beneath God's searching light shall lie:
No refuge then, but hopeless agony.

O'er heaven's expanse shall gathering shades of night
From earth, sun, stars, and moon, withdraw their light;

God's arm shall crush each mountain's towering pride;
On ocean's plain no more shall navies ride.
Dried at the source, no river's rushing sound

Shall soothe, no fountain slake the parched ground.
Around, afar, shall roll the trumpet's blast,
Voice of wrath long delayed, revealed at last.
In speechless awe, while earth's foundations groan,
On judgment's seat earth's kings their God shall own.
Uplifted then, in majesty divine,
Radiant with light, behold Salvation's Sign!

Cross of that Lord, who, once for sinners given,
Reviled by man, now owned by earth and heaven,
O'er every land extends his iron sway.
Such is the name these mystic lines display;
Saviour, eternal king, who bears our sins away.

It is evident that the virgin uttered these verses under the influence of Divine inspiration. And I cannot but esteem her blessed, whom the Saviour thus selected to unfold his gracious purpose towards us.

Many, however, who admit that the Erythræan Sybil was really a prophetess, yet refuse to credit this prediction, and imagine that some one professing our faith, and not unacquainted with the poetic art, was the composer of these verses. They hold, in short, that they are a forgery, and alleged to be the prophecies of the Sybil on the ground of their containing useful moral sentiments, tending to restrain licentiousness, and to lead man to a life of sobriety and decorum. Truth, however, in this case is evident, since the diligence of our countrymen has made a careful computation of the times; so that there is no room to suspect that this poem was composed after the advent and condemnation of Christ, or that the general report is false, that the verses were a prediction of the Sybil in an early age. For it is allowed that Cicero was acquainted with this poem, which he translated into the Latin tongue, and incorporated with his own works. This writer was put to death during the ascendancy of Antony, who in his turn was conquered by Augustus, whose reign lasted fifty-six years. Tiberius succeeded, in whose age it was that the Saviour's advent enlightened the world, the mystery of our most holy religion began to prevail, and as it were a new race of men commenced....

My question pertaining to the above is simply thus:

Are there any references to this poem in Cicero, or any other writer prior to Christ, as Constantine, or Eusebius, alleges?

The fourth eclogue of Virgil is a bit more interesting. Written in 37 B.C.E., it certainly seems to parallel the Messianic verses ascribed to the Jewish prophets, such as Isaiah, and contains imagery that is quite familiar to Christian dogma:

Quote:Muses of Sicily, essay we now 
A somewhat loftier task! Not all men love 
Coppice or lowly tamarisk: sing we woods, 
Woods worthy of a Consul let them be. 
Now the last age by Cumae's Sibyl sung 
Has come and gone, and the majestic roll 
Of circling centuries begins anew: 
Justice returns, returns old Saturn's reign, 
With a new breed of men sent down from heaven. 
Only do thou, at the boy's birth in whom 
The iron shall cease, the golden race arise, 
Befriend him, chaste Lucina; 'tis thine own 
Apollo reigns. And in thy consulate, 
This glorious age, O Pollio, shall begin, 
And the months enter on their mighty march. 
Under thy guidance, whatso tracks remain 
Of our old wickedness, once done away, 
Shall free the earth from never-ceasing fear. 
He shall receive the life of gods, and see 
Heroes with gods commingling, and himself 
Be seen of them, and with his father's worth 
Reign o'er a world at peace. For thee, O boy, 
First shall the earth, untilled, pour freely forth 
Her childish gifts, the gadding ivy-spray 
With foxglove and Egyptian bean-flower mixed, 
And laughing-eyed acanthus. Of themselves, 
Untended, will the she-goats then bring home 
Their udders swollen with milk, while flocks afield 
Shall of the monstrous lion have no fear. 
Thy very cradle shall pour forth for thee 
Caressing flowers. The serpent too shall die, 
Die shall the treacherous poison-plant, and far 
And wide Assyrian spices spring. But soon 
As thou hast skill to read of heroes' fame, 
And of thy father's deeds, and inly learn 
What virtue is, the plain by slow degrees 
With waving corn-crops shall to golden grow, 
From the wild briar shall hang the blushing grape, 
And stubborn oaks sweat honey-dew. Nathless 
Yet shall there lurk within of ancient wrong 
Some traces, bidding tempt the deep with ships, 
Gird towns with walls, with furrows cleave the earth. 
Therewith a second Tiphys shall there be, 
Her hero-freight a second Argo bear; 
New wars too shall arise, and once again 
Some great Achilles to some Troy be sent. 
Then, when the mellowing years have made thee man, 
No more shall mariner sail, nor pine-tree bark 
Ply traffic on the sea, but every land 
Shall all things bear alike: the glebe no more 
Shall feel the harrow's grip, nor vine the hook; 
The sturdy ploughman shall loose yoke from steer, 
Nor wool with varying colours learn to lie; 
But in the meadows shall the ram himself, 
Now with soft flush of purple, now with tint 
Of yellow saffron, teach his fleece to shine. 
While clothed in natural scarlet graze the lambs. 
"Such still, such ages weave ye, as ye run," 
Sang to their spindles the consenting Fates 
By Destiny's unalterable decree. 
Assume thy greatness, for the time draws nigh, 
Dear child of gods, great progeny of Jove! 
See how it totters- the world's orbed might, 
Earth, and wide ocean, and the vault profound, 
All, see, enraptured of the coming time! 
Ah! might such length of days to me be given, 
And breath suffice me to rehearse thy deeds, 
Nor Thracian Orpheus should out-sing me then, 
Nor Linus, though his mother this, and that 
His sire should aid- Orpheus Calliope, 
And Linus fair Apollo. Nay, though Pan, 
With Arcady for judge, my claim contest, 
With Arcady for judge great Pan himself 
Should own him foiled, and from the field retire. 
Begin to greet thy mother with a smile, 
O baby-boy! ten months of weariness 
For thee she bore: O baby-boy, begin! 
For him, on whom his parents have not smiled, 
Gods deem not worthy of their board or bed. 

My questions vis-à-vis Virgil are:
Did he draw inspiration from the Jewish scriptures rather than the Muses?
Are the themes that he highlights - as Gibbon outlines them - part of a common stock of folklore that both Virgil and Jewish/Christian writers adapted for their respective purposes? Other examples?
Did Virgil inspire the early Christians?
Or, is it largely coincidence?

Thanks for your help.

It's in English! does that mean English is the official language of heaven?

(August 6, 2015 at 1:28 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: It's in English! does that mean English is the official language of heaven?

Yeah, but it's the version of English they spoke in 1611

In late antiquity and the Middle Ages, the poem was radically reinterpreted by Christians to be about the birth of Jesus Christ. Medieval scholars thus claimed that Virgil had somehow predicted Christ prior to his birth, and that Virgil therefore must have been a pre-Christian prophet. Notable individuals such as Constantine the Great, St. Augustine, Dante Alighieri, and Alexander Pope believed in this interpretation of the eclogue. Modern scholars by and large shy away from this interpretation, although Floyd does note that the poem contains elements of many disparate religious and mythological themes, and R. G. M. Nisbet concluded that it is was likely that Virgil was indirectly inspired by the Hebrew Scriptures via Eastern oracles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclogue_4

It's easy to reinterpret existing prophesy. Mordern preacher do it all the time. the only difference is we have the benfit of hindsight. Meaning 'we' in the 'future' would tend to gravitate towards the more accurate predictions and after 40 years forget the rest.

Quote:R. G. M. Nisbet concluded that it is was likely that Virgil was indirectly inspired by the Hebrew Scriptures via Eastern oracles.

In other words, the common thread linking the messianic prophecies of Virgil and the Hebrew scriptures were eastern oracles, similarly to how Philo and Josephus charged Plato with deriving a part of his knowledge from the Jews when the more likely source for each were their Egyptian predecessors?

Well, we know Virgil didn't write that BS because the first known use of the word "judgment"  was in the 13th Century.  

Con men are always using ancient personalities to sell their BS because they think it makes it credible.

(August 7, 2015 at 1:50 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Well, we know Virgil didn't write that BS because the first known use of the word "judgment"  was in the 13th Century.  

Lol. What. A. Fucking. Moron.

WAFM? What does WAFM mean?

(August 7, 2015 at 3:00 am)Nestor Wrote:

(August 7, 2015 at 1:50 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Well, we know Virgil didn't write that BS because the first known use of the word "judgment"  was in the 13th Century.  

Lol. What. A. Fucking. Moron.

Produce the original document or else admit that you don't know shit.  The clock is ticking and you will soon be covered in crap. It might be BS, camel, donkey, elephant, bird, whale, bear, or cat crap.  So you might want be able to identify it.

As it says in Malachi 2:3 =   https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Malachi%202:3

(August 7, 2015 at 4:31 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Produce the original document or else admit that you don't know shit.  The clock is ticking and you will soon be covered in crap. It might be BS, camel, donkey, elephant, bird, whale, bear, or cat crap.  So you might want be able to identify it.

The "original" document? Are you high, or are you really just this retarded?

There is not a single manuscript from the ancient world that is the copy its author hand wrote and that is still extent.