(August 31, 2015 at 8:32 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: There are differing conceptions of hell, just as there are differing conceptions of heaven, and god.

I know yours is a benign conception, but quite frankly, that ain't what I've read in the Bible.  Yes, I know, you're not sola scriptura but at some point, when do you actually own what the Bible says?

Very nice cherry-picking, it looks like from here. You dodge the parts about a "lake of fire" and so on.  I'm unimpressed.

Yes, and the Evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians feel the same way about us Catholics as you do lol. They feel we cherry pick from the bible. 

Truth is the Church existed before the bible did, and Jesus left the "keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" with Peter, the first pope of the Church. No mention of any books. 

Not that the bible isn't important and insightful and inspired, but it has it's place, and it is not the main pillar of Truth.

But I get it. If I was following the bible word for word, I'd be receiving criticism just the same. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.   

We're cool though, PT, you know I love ya. I hope our recent debates haven't made you think I have changed my opinion of you. 

(August 31, 2015 at 8:42 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

Moderator Notice
Moved this thread to the more appropriate Religion subforum.

Oh shoot, sorry. 

(August 31, 2015 at 8:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: We'd probably get down right pissed off at Him every time something very unfortunate happened in our lives. He'd be the scapegoat, and he'd be hated. We'd hate Him. Hating God is not good for our own well being, so it is for our own sake that He does not present Himself openly in our everyday lives.

Don't you see how that looks for an outsider? How that points to an olympic discipline of mental acrobatics?

(August 31, 2015 at 8:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, and the Evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians feel the same way about us Catholics as you do lol. They feel we cherry pick from the bible.

And we feel that way about both factions.

(August 31, 2015 at 8:39 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I get all my information about Heaven and Hell from Swedenborg from his book by the same name, Heaven and Hell. Nothing in it contradicts the Catholic position as presented by Lady; however, Swedenborg does provide more detailed descriptions of both from his personal experiences with angels and demons.

sounds interesting!

(August 31, 2015 at 8:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 31, 2015 at 8:42 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

Moderator Notice
Moved this thread to the more appropriate Religion subforum.

Oh shoot, sorry. 

No worries

(August 31, 2015 at 8:39 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I get all my information about Heaven and Hell from Swedenborg from his book by the same name, Heaven and Hell. Nothing in it contradicts the Catholic position as presented by Lady; however, Swedenborg does provide more detailed descriptions of both from his personal experiences with angels and demons.

Personal experiences with angels and demons? Let me get my popcorn, this shit's gonna be good.

(August 31, 2015 at 8:43 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 31, 2015 at 8:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: We'd probably get down right pissed off at Him every time something very unfortunate happened in our lives. He'd be the scapegoat, and he'd be hated. We'd hate Him. Hating God is not good for our own well being, so it is for our own sake that He does not present Himself openly in our everyday lives.

Don't you see how that looks for an outsider? How that points to an olympic discipline of mental acrobatics?

Not at all. It makes perfect sense to me, personally.

A ruler who willingly deprives any of his subjects the chance to ever feel happiness cannot be considered a kind or benevolent one.

"God" made us. He is aware of our deepest thoughts and feelings, and can see every one of our futures long before they play themselves out. The ball could not be more in his court, yet he chooses to create a system in which eternal misery is at the very least on the table.

Even this softer, more marketable (and please, don't try and say it's anything other than a marketing ploy) version of Hell still suggests a despicable tyrant responsible for its creation. A tyrant unable to convince us all of his innate goodness, and therefore resorts to threats to ensure the obedience of its creations. A tyrant that is never present, or seen, or heard, or felt, but has permitted the use of it's image, name, and apparent blessing by powerful men for centuries to bolster their own influence and fatten their own wallets. A tyrant who is a myth, a shadow, a phantom, an illusion, dreamed up by superstitious goat-herders thousands of years ago who both lacked the ability to explain the world and wanted a way to control large swaths of it.

What disappoints me most is the way this softly-softly repackaged cotton-wool-wrapped, cleaner, friendlier version of Christianity is introduced to otherwise intelligent, thoughtful individuals such as CL, who latch onto it and build their existence around it in a way that insulates them from almost all critical thinking and objective analysis. Whether it be indoctrination from birth that almost guarantees a lifetime of struggle to break free from, or from converts desperately looking for purpose in their lives (imbuing them with the ability to turn a blind eye to it's many shortcomings because of the promises it makes), this virus has infected and controlled the human race for centuries, and it's only now that its power is starting to wane. And thank fuck for that.

(August 31, 2015 at 8:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 31, 2015 at 8:32 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: There are differing conceptions of hell, just as there are differing conceptions of heaven, and god.

I know yours is a benign conception, but quite frankly, that ain't what I've read in the Bible.  Yes, I know, you're not sola scriptura but at some point, when do you actually own what the Bible says?

Very nice cherry-picking, it looks like from here. You dodge the parts about a "lake of fire" and so on.  I'm unimpressed.

Yes, and the Evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians feel the same way about us Catholics as you do lol. They feel we cherry pick from the bible. 

Truth is the Church existed before the bible did, and Jesus left the "keys to the Kingdom of Heaven" with Peter, the first pope of the Church. No mention of any books. 

Not that the bible isn't important and insightful and inspired, but it has it's place, and it is not the main pillar of Truth.

But I get it. If I was following the bible word for word, I'd be receiving criticism just the same. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.   

We're cool though, PT, you know I love ya. I hope our recent debates haven't made you think I have changed my opinion of you. 

Nor mine of you, CL. But given your thoughtfulness, I feel it's only right that you should have the hard questions put to you plainly.

How do you decide which parts of the Bible guide you, and which part you can safely disregard? And why is your valuation of those parts be they literal, allegorical, and failed, truer than that of a Protestant, for instance? Aside from raw faith, of course.

What's the point of religion, if we get to meet god when we die, and decide if we want to be with him or not?

What's the purpose of wasting so much time praying and doing things for a being that is most likely not there, and if he ends up being there, you get to choose to go to heaven?

Why believe in all of the made-up stories that are almost certainly false, when you don't have to?