(October 14, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 9:54 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: the brain didnt die but " brain death " is what it is called when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex , there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right ?

No.  Brain death occurs when critical segments of the brain suffer irreversible death of sufficient quantity of cells to negate functioning.  She was put in "suspended animation" to minimize the chance of that happening, and, if the procedure went as hoped, despite ordinary clinical indicators of brain death being positive, little actual cell damage occurred.  

Quote:One of the cases often presented as being a strong challenge to those theorists arguing in favor of non-paranormal accounts of the NDE is that of Pam Reynolds as presented by cardiologist Michael Sabom (1998). In 1991, 35-year-old Reynolds was operated upon by Dr. Robert Spetzler in order to remove a potentially fatal giant basilar artery aneurysm. Standard neurological operating techniques could not be used because of the size and location of the aneurysm and instead a more complex procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest was employed. This involved lowering body temperature to 60 1 F (i.e.,16 1 C), stopping heartbeat and breathing, flattening of brainwaves, and the draining of blood from the head. The aneurysm was then carefully removed, and the patient’s body warmed up, normal heartbeat and circulation restored, and head and other wounds were closed. Reynolds was then allowed to awaken slowly in the recovery room. When she was once again able to speak, she told of a NDE that had apparently occurred while she was unconscious under general anesthetic and low-temperature cardiac arrest.

Reynolds reported that she awoke during the early stages of the operation to the sound of the small pneumatic saw that was being used to open her skull. She then felt as if she was being pulled out through the top of her head and, during the subsequent OBE, she was able to watch the proceedings from above the neurosurgeon’s shoulder. Her account accords very well with those of the medical staff present at the time, including her description of the pneumatic saw and the fact that the cardiac surgeon expressed surprise that the blood vessels in her right groin were too small to handle the large flow of blood needed to feed the cardiopulmonary bypass machine. She reported that after her heart was stopped and the blood drained from her body, she passed through a black vortex and into a realm of light where she met with deceased relatives. These relatives looked after her, provided her with nourishment, and eventually helped her to return to her physical body. She was able to report the music that was being played in the operating theatre at the point of her return.

This case is often presented as one that simply defies all conventional explanations (e.g., Greyson, 2000). Woerlee (2005a, b), an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation. He points out that it is perfectly possible for patients to regain consciousness during operations because the concentration of sleep-inducing and maintaining drugs may vary. Even though such patients cannot move and feel no pain because of the effects of other administered drugs, they may be perfectly aware of what is going on around them. If their eyes are open, they can actually see what is going on in the operating theatre, but even with eyes closed (Reynolds’ eyes were taped shut) they are likely to be able to internally visualize proceedings fairly accurately on the basis of other sensory inputs. It should be noted that the OBE phase of Reynolds’ NDE took place during the early phase of the operation, before the cardiac bypass apparatus had even been connected to her body.

Greyson (2000), among others, rejects the idea that Reynolds may have been able to hear during the operation because she had small molded speakers inserted in her ears that he claims would block out any other auditory stimulation. These speakers are used to emit 100-db clicks so that auditory evoked potentials (AEPs) recorded from the brainstem can be used to monitor levels of consciousness throughout the operation. However, anyone who has ever worn earphones to listen to music will readily acknowledge that they do not totally block out other sounds from the environment. Sound is transmitted into the auditory pathways not only via the ear itself but also by bone conduction.

Woerlee (2005b) also draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists. The sound heard by Reynolds when she regained consciousness during the early phase of the operation was unlikely to be interpreted as being a large chain saw or industrial angle cutter even in the unlikely event that the patient might have expected such inappropriate instruments to be used. As Sabom (1998, p. 189) himself acknowledges, ‘‘For some, evidence arising from cases such as Pam’s will continue to suggest some type of out-of-body experience occurring when death is imminent. For others, the inexactness which arises in the evaluation of these cases will be reason enough to dismiss them as dreams, hallucinations, or fantasies.’’

"Near-death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors" ~ Christopher C. French

Couldn't have put it better myself.



You wouldn't be a neurologist, by any chance?

(October 14, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 9:54 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: the brain didnt die but " brain death " is what it is called when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex , there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right ?

No.  Brain death occurs when critical segments of the brain suffer irreversible death of sufficient quantity of cells to negate functioning.  She was put in "suspended animation" to minimize the chance of that happening, and, if the procedure went as hoped, despite ordinary clinical indicators of brain death being positive, little actual cell damage occurred.  

Quote: Woerlee (2005b) also draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists. The sound heard by Reynolds when she regained consciousness during the early phase of the operation was unlikely to be interpreted as being a large chain saw or industrial angle cutter even in the unlikely event that the patient might have expected such inappropriate instruments to be used. As Sabom (1998, p. 189) himself acknowledges, ‘‘For some, evidence arising from cases such as Pam’s will continue to suggest some type of out-of-body experience occurring when death is imminent. For others, the inexactness which arises in the evaluation of these cases will be reason enough to dismiss them as dreams, hallucinations, or fantasies.’’

"Near-death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors" ~ Christopher C. French

" This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. " .... but that does not mean that is what in fact she did . he is just guessing at a possible explanation ,  just because someone has the opportunity to do something doesnt necessarily mean they did it right? isnt it more probable that instead of plotting this huge hoax she was just laying in bed exhausted trying to recuperate after a major surgery ?  just because Woerlee assumes thats what she did doesnt mean he can back that up in any way its just his explanation for it .

even though the brain did not die literally it is considered  brain death when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex , there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right ? yet with none of that happening she experienced all these intense "thoughts" during that time ....... shouldnt the lack of brain wave activity and flat EEG and a non functioning cerebral cortex and brain stem inhbit such mental activity ?

(October 14, 2015 at 10:29 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: No.  Brain death occurs when critical segments of the brain suffer irreversible death of sufficient quantity of cells to negate functioning.  She was put in "suspended animation" to minimize the chance of that happening, and, if the procedure went as hoped, despite ordinary clinical indicators of brain death being positive, little actual cell damage occurred.  

" This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. " .... but that does not mean that is what in fact she did . he is just guessing at a possible explanation ,  just because someone has the opportunity to do something doesnt necessarily mean they did it right? isnt it more probabal that instead of plotting this huge hoax she was just laying in bed exhausted trying to recuperate after a major surgery ?  just because Woerlee assumes thats what she did doesnt mean he can back that up in any way its just his explanation for it .

even though the brain did not die it is considered brain brain death when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex and there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right . yet with none of that happening she experienced all these intense thoughts during that time .

The claim here isn't that she deliberately fabricated anything. It's far more likely that she had time to remember and ponder what happened to her, and that in so doing she unconsciously filled out details with her imagination. Human memory is remarkably shitty, actually, especially as it relates to dreams, so chances are that her memories of the NDE visions became more elaborate and solid as she struggled to remember them and her mind filled them in with incorrect and/or new information.


Even if she didn't, though, there's no evidence that these experiences are anything more than dreams.

From a personal perspective, my mother loves to tell people that I died and was brought back after a motorbike accident years ago (my mother is devoutly Catholic).

I didn't die, of course. My heart simply stopped beating for a couple of minutes.

(October 14, 2015 at 10:43 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 10:29 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: " This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. " .... but that does not mean that is what in fact she did . he is just guessing at a possible explanation ,  just because someone has the opportunity to do something doesnt necessarily mean they did it right? isnt it more probabal that instead of plotting this huge hoax she was just laying in bed exhausted trying to recuperate after a major surgery ?  just because Woerlee assumes thats what she did doesnt mean he can back that up in any way its just his explanation for it .

even though the brain did not die it is considered brain brain death when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex and there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right . yet with none of that happening she experienced all these intense thoughts during that time .

The claim here isn't that she deliberately fabricated anything. It's far more likely that she had time to remember and ponder what happened to her, and that in so doing she unconsciously filled out details with her imagination. Human memory is remarkably shitty, actually, especially as it relates to dreams, so chances are that her memories of the NDE visions became more elaborate and solid as she struggled to remember them and her mind filled them in with incorrect and/or new information.


Even if she didn't, though, there's no evidence that these experiences are anything more than dreams.

 didnt know you could dream without any brain function which was verified by all 3 machines

(October 14, 2015 at 10:58 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:  didnt think you could dream without any brain function verified by all 3 machines

She could have had those visions after the anesthesia kicked in but before her brain totally turned off. How would she know the difference if that were the case? There's no reason to believe she should be able to account for the time that her brain was shut down, and for all we know she dreamed all that stuff either before her brain activity stopped or after it turned back on.

lol i love your signature btw red beard

Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)

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(October 14, 2015 at 11:08 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 10:58 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:  didnt think you could dream without any brain function verified by all 3 machines

She could have had those visions after the anesthesia kicked in but before her brain totally turned off. How would she know the difference if that were the case? There's no reason to believe she should be able to account for the time that her brain was shut down, and for all we know she dreamed all that stuff either before her brain activity stopped or after it turned back on.

  anyways we wont know for sure until we die ourselves but there many indications that there is life after death these experiences have a lot in common and they upset religious people because its not what they are preaching so therefore i support it

The point here is to deploy the Holmesian Maxim ("Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains - however improbable - must be the truth") with Occam's Razor strapped to it. It might very well be that there is something going on that truly defies scientific explanation and is for all practical purposes miraculous; but if you don't put in the work to investigate the mundane options first, we'll never know.

(October 14, 2015 at 11:10 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: lol i love your signature btw red beard

Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)

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(October 14, 2015 at 11:08 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: She could have had those visions after the anesthesia kicked in but before her brain totally turned off. How would she know the difference if that were the case? There's no reason to believe she should be able to account for the time that her brain was shut down, and for all we know she dreamed all that stuff either before her brain activity stopped or after it turned back on.

  anyways we wont know for sure until we die ourselves but there many indications that there is life after death these experiences have a lot in common and they upset religious people because its not what they are preaching so therefore i support it

Of course we don't know for sure.

But I honestly think most evidence indicates nothing after death.

I've always found it interesting that those who report NDEs, especially in a religious context, report versions that they are culturally ingrained to "experience": a Christian, or someone in the West sees the Christian afterlife, a Muslim experiences the Muslim afterlife.  You never get a Hindu reporting experiencing the afterlife of another religion.

(October 14, 2015 at 10:58 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 10:43 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: The claim here isn't that she deliberately fabricated anything. It's far more likely that she had time to remember and ponder what happened to her, and that in so doing she unconsciously filled out details with her imagination. Human memory is remarkably shitty, actually, especially as it relates to dreams, so chances are that her memories of the NDE visions became more elaborate and solid as she struggled to remember them and her mind filled them in with incorrect and/or new information.


Even if she didn't, though, there's no evidence that these experiences are anything more than dreams.

 didnt know you could dream without any brain function which was verified by all 3 machines

You apparently failed to note the following passage in the quoted account:

Quote:Reynolds reported that she awoke during the early stages of the operation to the sound of the small pneumatic saw that was being used to open her skull. ... [Woerlee] points out that it is perfectly possible for patients to regain consciousness during operations because the concentration of sleep-inducing and maintaining drugs may vary. Even though such patients cannot move and feel no pain because of the effects of other administered drugs, they may be perfectly aware of what is going on around them. If their eyes are open, they can actually see what is going on in the operating theatre, but even with eyes closed (Reynolds’ eyes were taped shut) they are likely to be able to internally visualize proceedings fairly accurately on the basis of other sensory inputs. It should be noted that the OBE phase of Reynolds’ NDE took place during the early phase of the operation, before the cardiac bypass apparatus had even been connected to her body.

"Near-death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors" ~ Christopher C. French