But your thoughts are all you have. The delusion can come from using those thoughts to interpret experiences in such a way as to not reflect reality the way it is but instead the way that you sub-consciously want or expect it to be.

Pattern seeking apes can be easily fooled.

Hi muhtesem insan,

(January 23, 2011 at 12:21 pm)muhtesem insan Wrote: for sake of the argument let's say you're right. How do you know the GOD you perceived is the one christians thinks that true.

I again point out that I did not make the claim that I perceived God.

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Hi Ace Otana,

(January 23, 2011 at 11:33 am)Ace Otana Wrote: Do you think it's possible that in your thirst for answers that you went for answers that seemed most appealing to you but were less truthful?

I didn't find theistic belief appealing - quite the opposite. As I said, I was "trying and failing to avoid the conclusion I did not want to arrive at."

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(January 23, 2011 at 5:01 pm)Darwinian Wrote: The delusion can come from using those thoughts to interpret experiences in such a way as to not reflect reality the way it is but instead the way that you sub-consciously want or expect it to be.

Pattern seeking apes can be easily fooled.

Pattern-seeking apes can also arrive at true propositions. So what is your point?

Quote:Pattern seeking apes can be easily fooled.

The basis of all organized religion, Dar.

Welcome to the forum, Matthew.

Matthew Wrote:the repeated experiences of trying and failing to avoid the conclusion I did not want to arrive at certainly gave me the impression that I was not simply wrestling with my own thoughts but with something outside of myself.

Is there a different way you can phrase this? Then we might understand you better, because it's a bit nebulous and confusing as a reason for believing in God.

Hi OnlyNatural,

(January 24, 2011 at 10:31 pm)OnlyNatural Wrote: Welcome to the forum, Matthew.

Matthew Wrote:the repeated experiences of trying and failing to avoid the conclusion I did not want to arrive at certainly gave me the impression that I was not simply wrestling with my own thoughts but with something outside of myself.

Is there a different way you can phrase this? Then we might understand you better, because it's a bit nebulous and confusing as a reason for believing in God.

That is because you are misunderstanding me to be giving a reason for believing in God. The question originally asked was "Why did you convert (i.e. become a Christian)?" not "What reasons led you to the conclusion that God exists?" If you want to know my answer to the second question, it is that I reject the premise that God is the conclusion of an argument.

(January 25, 2011 at 2:17 pm)Matthew Wrote: Hi OnlyNatural,

(January 24, 2011 at 10:31 pm)OnlyNatural Wrote: Welcome to the forum, Matthew.

Matthew Wrote:the repeated experiences of trying and failing to avoid the conclusion I did not want to arrive at certainly gave me the impression that I was not simply wrestling with my own thoughts but with something outside of myself.

Is there a different way you can phrase this? Then we might understand you better, because it's a bit nebulous and confusing as a reason for believing in God.

That is because you are misunderstanding me to be giving a reason for believing in God. The question originally asked was "Why did you convert (i.e. become a Christian)?" not "What reasons led you to the conclusion that God exists?" If you want to know my answer to the second question, it is that I reject the premise that God is the conclusion of an argument.

To become a christian you should accept that there's a god. So there should be reasons led you to believe that there's a god.

(January 25, 2011 at 2:35 pm)muhtesem insan Wrote: To become a christian you should accept that there's a god. So there should be reasons led you to believe that there's a god.

This is not the Christian understanding of "becoming a Christian". To become a Christian, God must accept you. A person becomes a Christian because of what God does, not because of what they do. God cares very little about whether human beings believe that He exists.

(January 25, 2011 at 2:47 pm)Matthew Wrote:

(January 25, 2011 at 2:35 pm)muhtesem insan Wrote: To become a christian you should accept that there's a god. So there should be reasons led you to believe that there's a god.

This is not the Christian understanding of "becoming a Christian". To become a Christian, God must accept you. A person becomes a Christian because of what God does, not because of what they do. God cares very little about whether human beings believe that He exists.

so why does him punish you with eternal flame if you do not believe he does exist.

(January 25, 2011 at 2:51 pm)muhtesem insan Wrote: so why does him punish you with eternal flame if you do not believe he does exist.

He doesn't.

(January 23, 2011 at 4:57 pm)Matthew Wrote: I'll repeat what I said in my last post: "I did not perceive that God was pursuing me. Rather, the repeated experiences of trying and failing to avoid the conclusion I did not want to arrive at certainly gave me the impression that I was not simply wrestling with my own thoughts but with something outside of myself. After my conversion, I understood that something to be God Himself."

You didn't answer my question Matthew, once again, how do you know you didn't hallucinate or perceive this external agent, this god? How are you certain it was a deity communicating with you and not some other chemical imbalance in the brain brought upon by stress, depression, anxiety, a nervous breakdown, or some other mental disorder? Not saying it was necessarily any of those listed, of course, but how did you rule out all the other possible natural explanations and conclude your thinking some deity outside the real world was responsible?

(January 25, 2011 at 2:47 pm)Matthew Wrote: This is not the Christian understanding of "becoming a Christian". To become a Christian, God must accept you. A person becomes a Christian because of what God does, not because of what they do. God cares very little about whether human beings believe that He exists.

What interpretation of Christianity is this? You seem to be quoting Christian soteriology yet it adds another requirement of being predestined to be saved which contradicts the doctrine of repentance. I was once a Christian regardless. I adhered to scriptures in the Hebrew Bible. I believed God the father sent his son Jesus, the Messiah to redeem mankind. Like all Christians I simply accepted the atoning sacrifice of Christ for my sins.

I finally deconverted, and stayed deconverted, because there was not a single shred of evidence that Christ ever lived or that God even exists or manifests in reality. On the other hand there is an abundance of evidence that shows we evolved, so there was no Adam and Eve, no fall, and consequently no original sin for a saviour to save us from.