(December 28, 2015 at 5:49 pm)Evie Wrote:

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(December 28, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Heat Wrote: NO WAY YOU WERE CRITICIZED? YOU POOR THING, INSULTED TOO? IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE ON THE INTERNET OR ANYTHING!

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Heat is entertaining as fuck.

Also he's very analytical and has an active curious mind... I'd love to see him challenge EP to a duel. Lol.

Aww shux 

(December 28, 2015 at 5:46 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 3:52 pm)Delicate Wrote: Do you believe Christianity caused the dark ages and I don't want to admit I'm wrong?

Well the dark ages were brought on by the fall of the Roman Empire which was brought down in part by the change structure from a military and conquest based power system to one more church centric. The theory goes like this, until the time of Christianity the way to power in the roman empire was to become a powerful general. This changed as Christianity became the route to power and the brightest and best eneterd the church rather than the military. It wasn't the whole story but who knows what a better class of general could have achieved against the invading barbarian hordes

If only Stendhal had lived during the waning days of the Roman empire! I have no trouble imagining The Red and the Black transplanted to Roman times. Instead of studying and daydreaming about Napoleon, Julien Sorel could have dreamed of Julius Caesar.

(December 28, 2015 at 5:46 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 3:52 pm)Delicate Wrote: Do you believe Christianity caused the dark ages and I don't want to admit I'm wrong?

Well the dark ages were brought on by the fall of the Roman Empire which was brought down in part by the change structure from a military and conquest based power system to one more church centric. The theory goes like this, until the time of Christianity the way to power in the roman empire was to become a powerful general. This changed as Christianity became the route to power and the brightest and best eneterd the church rather than the military. It wasn't the whole story but who knows what a better class of general could have achieved against the invading barbarian hordes

If anything, that theory would suggest that it was in part due to the protection of the church that the opportunity for scientific enlightenment was made possible, as rather than squandering their talents in political conflicts, the brightest were left to themselves in monasteries to discover intellectual progress, where it was almost exclusively made in Europe, along with the preservation of ancient works, much of which would have been permanently lost without the Muslims. Hence, it's also interesting to note that it was religion, in the case of Islam, that initiated a rekindling of Greek science and philosophy which in turn led to solidify the rise of Arab civilization during the period in the West known as the dark ages. So, apparently, if you're going to blame religion in the one instance, you'd better be prepared to credit it in the other.

(December 28, 2015 at 5:58 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 5:46 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Well the dark ages were brought on by the fall of the Roman Empire which was brought down in part by the change structure from a military and conquest based power system to one more church centric. The theory goes like this, until the time of Christianity the way to power in the roman empire was to become a powerful general. This changed as Christianity became the route to power and the brightest and best eneterd the church rather than the military. It wasn't the whole story but who knows what a better class of general could have achieved against the invading barbarian hordes

If anything, that theory would suggest that it was in part due to the protection of the church that the opportunity for scientific enlightenment was made possible, as rather than squandering their talents in political conflicts, the brightest were left to themselves in monasteries to discover intellectual progress, where it was almost exclusively made in Europe, along with the preservation of ancient works, much of which would have been permanently lost without the Muslims. Hence, it's also interesting to note that it was religion, in the case of Islam, that initiated a rekindling of Greek science and philosophy which in turn led to solidify the rise of Arab civilization during the period in the West known as the dark ages. So, apparently, if you're going to blame religion in the one instance, you'd better be prepared to credit it in the other.

Wasn't later clergy who initiated scientific enlightenment with the older ones erasing anything that might represent a differing view of the universe than the one presented in the bible.

(December 28, 2015 at 5:51 pm)Heat Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 5:49 pm)Evie Wrote:

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Heat is entertaining as fuck.

Also he's very analytical and has an active curious mind... I'd love to see him challenge EP to a duel. Lol.

Aww shux 

EP will eat you alive and shit you out.

Why don't you just go and have some sweet sweet sexy-time with EP, Delicate?

ETA: And since when the FUCK did you say "shit" Delicate? God will be mad at you, godboy. That's an extra month in hell.

Oh right... ask Jesus for forgiveness and offer him a BJ and you'll be just fine. Get down on your knees and suc--I mean... pray...for forgiveness.

(December 28, 2015 at 5:26 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 5:11 pm)Delicate Wrote: On reflection, I've found this thread illuminating.

I've seen some people respond with grace and restraint, to whom I want to extend the same grace and restraint back (and more).

The people you have not mentioned, are those that originally responded with grace and restraint, but were soon disappointed with your intellectual dishonesty. 

Quote:And yet, I've seen some respond with rage and insults. Not just passive cynicism, but a demeaning sort of cynicism that actively tries to pollute good faith dialogue.

Some of these may have started with grace and restraint. 

Others may be a bit "world weary" of the long history of theists that come here, that begin by asking a few "innocent" questions, but soon become condescending, intellectually dishonest, butt holes.

Quote:Then there are those in between. Those who WANT to respond in good faith but have unrealistic expectations of me doing 40 years of penance, or giving up on what I take to be true as derived from reason and evidence, etc.

And yet, you continue to fail to provide us with the reason and evidence you claim you have for your beliefs.

You're welcome to substantiate your claims.

(December 28, 2015 at 5:45 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 1:33 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: Can you not see how you're proving my point right now?

If your point is that knowledge stopped increasing at the pace in which it had been for the 500 years or so prior to the rise of the Holy Roman Empire, then your point is simply the stuff of popular but historically illiterate internet babble.

Point taken. I don't claim to be an expert, so I'll happily defer to your judgements on the matter.

(December 28, 2015 at 5:30 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 5:11 pm)Delicate Wrote: Then there are those in between. Those who WANT to respond in good faith but have unrealistic expectations of me doing 40 years of penance, or giving up on what I take to be true as derived from reason and evidence, etc.

How many times and in how many ways in how many threads have you been asked to provide this evidence?

But you don't understand why you're taken less than seriously? 

I've been asked for evidence for claims I haven't made or aren't interested in.

I've never been asked to demonstrate, for instance, why I take most atheists to be irrational.

When I provide reasons I see no analysis of my reasons. All I see is rage.

How dare I believe in reasons and evidence!

(December 28, 2015 at 5:58 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(December 28, 2015 at 5:46 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Well the dark ages were brought on by the fall of the Roman Empire which was brought down in part by the change structure from a military and conquest based power system to one more church centric. The theory goes like this, until the time of Christianity the way to power in the roman empire was to become a powerful general. This changed as Christianity became the route to power and the brightest and best eneterd the church rather than the military. It wasn't the whole story but who knows what a better class of general could have achieved against the invading barbarian hordes

If anything, that theory would suggest that it was in part due to the protection of the church that the opportunity for scientific enlightenment was made possible, as rather than squandering their talents in political conflicts, the brightest were left to themselves in monasteries to discover intellectual progress, where it was almost exclusively made in Europe, along with the preservation of ancient works, much of which would have been permanently lost without the Muslims. Hence, it's also interesting to note that it was religion, in the case of Islam, that initiated a rekindling of Greek science and philosophy which in turn led to solidify the rise of Arab civilization during the period in the West known as the dark ages. So, apparently, if you're going to blame religion in the one instance, you'd better be prepared to credit it in the other.

Yes, I know that, even though this wasn't addressed at me. But isn't it the case that the Dark Ages were, in effect, extremely religious? It seems to me like to take religion out of the equation like that is a little going too far. I rather regret more the fall of the Greek civilization, than the Roman one, by the way. And you can't expect me to credit religion simply for being the only game in town in Europe for such a long time. The Dark Ages were hell on earth for most people for a reason, and that reason is very intimately connected with religion - or at least that's my impression, based on what I learned and read. Am I wrong?