(January 2, 2016 at 2:41 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it doesn't matter what someone experiences, if they have a certain attitude towards doubt and disbelief. For example, suppose a piece of paper you felt came out of your foot. It had some directions, "Let *insert your name* do this and that". It was in fact in your Mom's hand writing. You go show it to your Mom, and she is baffled on who wrote it, and says this is her hand writing but she didn't write it. And you vividly remember it coming out of your foot.

A skeptic can even doubt such an experience. He may think his mom is tricking him, but, how did she make him feel it came out of his foot? Of course, that had to be a delusional experience, it was just under his foot. So you have two things to doubt - 1. Your mother. 2. Your own experience. It's like your mom knew you would have a delusional experience or wanted you to have it. And then doesn't even say, yeah she wrote it.

So I would say even if you could not be 100% sure, here trusting your mother, and trusting your vivid memory is more important.

It's further complicated when there is direction to go a certain place, and then after becoming a skeptic of faith, you win a two way ticket to that place.

These are signs. They are not perhaps full out signs that you can't deny, but they would be evidence.

Of course, sharing this experience with people who don't believe in God or supernatural, shouldn't be done, because, it's meant to be a proof for you.

But a person can doubt everything one experiences, even though it's more rational to believe in the experiences one experience sometimes.

And if a piece of paper came out your foot with your moms handwriting on it, what would it prove? God? Is god notorious for making hand written instructions come out of peoples feet? This the problem with your thinking, when something happens you can't explain you automatically attribute it to god without evidence, while a skeptic would say "wow that's strange, lets see if I can find out why this is happening".

(January 2, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: And if a piece of paper came out your foot with your moms handwriting on it, what would it prove? God? Is god notorious for making hand written instructions come out of peoples feet? This the problem with your thinking, when something happens you can't explain you automatically attribute it to god without evidence, while a skeptic would say "wow that's strange, lets see if I can find out why this is happening".

You nailed.

(January 2, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: And if a piece of paper came out your foot with your moms handwriting on it, what would it prove? God? Is god notorious for making hand written instructions come out of peoples feet? This the problem with your thinking, when something happens you can't explain you automatically attribute it to god without evidence, while a skeptic would say "wow that's strange, lets see if I can find out why this is happening".

It's pretty standard claptrap: MK can't demonstrate that his god exists, so he's taking the well worn route of making it seem like we'd never be convinced no matter what he said. He can't prove his point so he's got to make insinuations about the people pointing that failure out.

Like most i was raised to be Christian at a young age. So by age 7 i gave my oath to Jesus. My life at the time was not good. My parents had me by accident and so got married out of obligation instead of love. I wasn't abused but I could tell I wasn't wanted either. Feelings of love, comfort, and self esteem where absent in my childhood.

My only real prayer to this god was that i could somehow feel at least somewhat good about my life. 7 years latter (age 14) I'm holding a kitchen knife and wondering why couldn't this god at least answer this one prayer. Would hell receive me any better if I ended my life?

The other part of the Christian downfall for me was my observation of other "Christians" . I was taught that a Christian should try to be loving and compassionate to every one. I tried and sometimes failed but I always tried to reconcile to anyone I treated badly. Yet i would see others that would go to church and/or bible camp and would act with what I could only describe as wanton evil with no regrets and no thought as to the love and compassion that they where taught.

i saw no evidence that a divine hand was present in any one's actions that could not also be normal human.

I threw everything away that I had been taught(as opposed to ending it all) and started looking for other spiritual/phillisophical paths. I found Wicca. I tried that with all my heart and ....it worked. I felt a deep connection to.... well i could only describe it as all of reality. It was amazing. For the first time in my life i didn't hate myself.

It didn't last but it made me realize that I was not born guilty of anything. I came to understand that I am perfect as a human being if only I realize that. I found that I am part of this reality just as everyone and everything else is. To understand that is to find true compassion and the real reason behind morals. At least for me.

I could go on but for now I will just say that after all that the Christian has the audacity to then tell me that I chose the wrong path. They tell me in several different ways such as shunning, attacking, and relentless coerscion. Can you imagine going through what I have and experiencing this sort of thing from what should be fellow human beings.

(January 2, 2016 at 7:20 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 2, 2016 at 3:15 am)Cecelia Wrote: Do you have an example of paper coming out of someone's foot?  

Scenario 1.
I don't and it's all hypothetical.

This is faith. Being unable to answer a simple question plainly. It's all, "Well yeah but what if...."

(January 2, 2016 at 7:20 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I also believe that God does talk to people who aren't Prophets or Guides. It's just that conversation is personal. He whispers to them secretly and they act openly.

People who God does talk to personally don't go claim it openly unless they are Guides with divine proofs from God that they are to be followed.

The issue is to me, I believe God will go out of his way for those who seek the truth with utmost striving and sincerity, and show them that extra miracle to make them feel tranquil. And then will show them more and more.

Believing is one thing, knowing is another. Do you have any personal miracles you are willing to share?

God is just the name we give to that emotion when our 'mystical experience' sensors are triggered. But it's well known that such triggering is or can be caused by natural events. So it's taking a natural happening, and letting the emotional overtones decide for you what you want to do with it.

Quote: Do you have any personal miracles you are willing to share?

What would be the point if I can't prove them?  Are you suppose to take my word for it if I did have such personal miracles? No. Nor should you.

(January 2, 2016 at 1:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote: Do you have any personal miracles you are willing to share?

What would be the point if I can't prove them?  Are you suppose to take my word for it if I did have such personal miracles? No. Nor should you.

The point would be to get a qualitative feel for what actual events in your life constitute a personal miracle in your eyes.

Instead I get deflection and attitude. Not a good sign.

I'll repeat: do you have any you're willing to share?

(January 2, 2016 at 12:36 pm)loganonekenobi Wrote: Like most i was raised to be Christian at a young age.  So by age 7 i gave my oath to Jesus. My life at the time was not good.  My parents had me by accident and so got married out of obligation instead of love.  I wasn't abused but I could tell I wasn't wanted either.  Feelings of love, comfort, and self esteem where absent in my childhood.

My only real prayer to this god was that i could somehow feel at least somewhat good about my life.  7 years latter (age 14) I'm holding a kitchen knife and wondering why couldn't this god at least answer this one prayer. Would hell receive me any better if I ended my life?

The other part of the Christian downfall for me was my observation of other "Christians" .  I was taught that a Christian should try to be loving and compassionate to every one.  I tried and sometimes failed but I always tried to reconcile to anyone I treated badly.  Yet i would see others that would go to church and/or bible camp and would act with what I could only describe as wanton evil with no regrets and no thought as to the love and compassion that they where taught.

i saw no evidence that a divine hand was present in any one's actions that could not also be normal human.

I threw everything away that I had been taught(as opposed to ending it all) and started looking for other spiritual/phillisophical paths.  I found Wicca.  I tried that with all my heart and ....it worked.  I felt a deep connection to.... well i could only describe it as all of reality.  It was amazing.  For the first time in my life i didn't hate myself.

It didn't last but it made me realize that I was not born guilty of anything.  I came to understand that I am perfect as a human being if only I realize that.  I found that I am part of this reality just as everyone and everything else is.  To understand that is to find true compassion and the real reason behind morals. At least for me.

I could go on but for now I will just say that after all that the Christian has the audacity to then tell me that I chose the wrong path. They tell me in several different ways such as shunning, attacking, and  relentless coerscion. Can you imagine going through what I have and experiencing this sort of thing from what should be fellow human beings.

I'm sorry you have been treated poorly by Christians who lack compassion, etc. People still need to make choices in how to treat others. It's unfortunate for people who claim to be believers, that they feel they are somehow better than those who are not believers. Obviously, that's not true. When I left Christianity, I lost a few (who I thought) were dear friends of mine. But, they weren't. Interestingly, my atheist friends offline and online judge me far less for my coming back to faith, than my Christian 'friends' did when I left it. 

Your story is one of courage, and you have come a very long way, that is amazing. I appreciate you sharing what led you to where you are, and your present beliefs.

(January 2, 2016 at 12:31 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(January 2, 2016 at 12:06 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: And if a piece of paper came out your foot with your moms handwriting on it, what would it prove? God? Is god notorious for making hand written instructions come out of peoples feet? This the problem with your thinking, when something happens you can't explain you automatically attribute it to god without evidence, while a skeptic would say "wow that's strange, lets see if I can find out why this is happening".

It's pretty standard claptrap: MK can't demonstrate that his god exists, so he's taking the well worn route of making it seem like we'd never be convinced no matter what he said. He can't prove his point so he's got to make insinuations about the people pointing that failure out.

But, that is kind of true though. I mean, my faith experiences are my own, and I have shared them with a few online and offline, and it's typically the believers who believe them, and the non-believers who accept me for me, but who are skeptics, don't believe them. The thing about that is though...it's good to share experiences, but to realize that it's a private thing. I think Mystic is just saying that if you don't believe in a deity or a supernatural 'realm' to begin with, it will seem more like mere coincidences lining up, as to explain away what you feel you experienced in faith. You know what I mean?

The difference is that MK keeps trying to make out there is something wrong with us for not believing what he says. You're happy to accept sceptics simply need their own evidence to examine.