(March 9, 2009 at 7:12 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I don't fear DEATH itself....

I just don't like the idea of dying.

It depends how you die...but the process of dying must not be so nice....

Now with family and friends of course I would miss them....so that would be a lot worse.

With myself its just the matter of the process of dying...I don't fear death itself.

About others worrying about what it would be like without ME - I can't really think that far ahead... I think...

After I'm gone I'm gone. Before I'm gone its just the process of dying.

EvF

Well, I have understood finally that dying is essentially like going to sleep, dear friend. It is just that you do not dream and you never wake up. Now the process by which you are put to sleep may not be too pleasant, but I am confident at the last that it is just the same as when you drift off to sleep at night. Often, you don't even know that you've done it.

Really in some sense, you die every time you surrender your consciousness to sleep, and you are born every time you wake up.

Have you ever had to put a dog down? The poor beast lies there, the needle goes in, it relaxes, and that is that. The significance is all in your imagination. What you cry for is not really the dog, but yourself, that you will never encounter the splendid thing again.

@Mark;

Just so. Imo grief is an utterly selfish emotion based, one's feeling of loss of a person, thing or even idea to which one was attached.

Imo attachment is indeed a major cause of suffering. I can see how MY suffering can be the result of the attachment of others. (EG someone being attached to the belief that I'm an arsehole and deciding to hit me with a blunt instrument). But I don't see how my physical suffering is necessarily caused by my attachment. (I reject karma)

(March 9, 2009 at 9:15 pm)Mark Wrote:

(March 9, 2009 at 7:12 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I don't fear DEATH itself....

I just don't like the idea of dying.

It depends how you die...but the process of dying must not be so nice....

Now with family and friends of course I would miss them....so that would be a lot worse.

With myself its just the matter of the process of dying...I don't fear death itself.

About others worrying about what it would be like without ME - I can't really think that far ahead... I think...

After I'm gone I'm gone. Before I'm gone its just the process of dying.

EvF

Well, I have understood finally that dying is essentially like going to sleep, dear friend. It is just that you do not dream and you never wake up. Now the process by which you are put to sleep may not be too pleasant, but I am confident at the last that it is just the same as when you drift off to sleep at night. Often, you don't even know that you've done it.

Really in some sense, you die every time you surrender your consciousness to sleep, and you are born every time you wake up.

Have you ever had to put a dog down? The poor beast lies there, the needle goes in, it relaxes, and that is that. The significance is all in your imagination. What you cry for is not really the dog, but yourself, that you will never encounter the splendid thing again.

I wholeheartedly agree on your post. I was just talking about how it depends how painful the process of death is. Death itself I do not fear because once I'm dead I won't worry at all! I won't ANYTHING! I'm gone! So no use worry about NOT existing! That's the way I see it anyway.

I understand that dying can often be peaceful and there is nothing to fear. But its not always so - so I am saying that with regards to dying it's the process that's more of the difficulty - in the cases when it can sometimes be painful.

I haven't experienced myself dying so I don't know whether it will be painful or not (or how painful). Since its never really painful when you go to sleep.

I don't fear death itself. DyING might be painful, it might not. And if its painful - I don't know how painful.

Painkillers are getting better though too, aren't they? I assume?

EvF

(March 9, 2009 at 9:49 pm)padraic Wrote: @Mark;

Just so. Imo grief is an utterly selfish emotion based, one's feeling of loss of a person, thing or even idea to which one was attached.

Imo attachment is indeed a major cause of suffering. I can see how MY suffering can be the result of the attachment of others. (EG someone being attached to the belief that I'm an arsehole and deciding to hit me with a blunt instrument). But I don't see how my physical suffering is necessarily caused by my attachment. (I reject karma)

Now we're almost getting into Buddhism. Let go of attachment and you will never fear pain or losing anything. Essentially you will be as happy as you can be; or enlightened as some might say.

Attachment IS the cause of much evil, but also of much good. We will all miss our family, friends and pets when they die. Why? Because we loved them. If we wanted to do away with the pain of death, we would have to say goodbye to enjoyment, love, proper fulfilment, etc. I know it's painful, but I believe it's the good that makes the bad. This is why I don't think heaven is possible to exist. Ambition and the desire which has driven mankind for thousands of years to improve only exists in the face of dissatisfaction. If we were to be completely content (as heaven supposedly will be...), then all progress would halt. We would be completely comfortable with what we were doing, where we were, how we were living, etc. Good music can only be written because we have knowledge of bad music. Good art is the same. Good anything is the same.

But in heaven? Everyone's happy, so everyone's music is good, everyone's art is good, everyone's everything is good. Humans become robots when perfect and lose every ounce of self-expression and the ability or desire to improve themselves. But if heaven wasn't perfect, then it's not really heaven, just another earth. Even if it did exist, and everyone was perfectly happy, I'd rather be in hell, appreciating good and bad.

I wouldn't swap the pain for anything. The pain is nothing good, but I would rather have it present. I want to know where I can improve. I want to be able to love. I want to be able to feel sad. Angry. And every other human emotion.

Grief is selfish? I must remember that next time I see a friend or family member mowed down by a passing bus hock:
Kyu

(March 10, 2009 at 5:00 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Grief is selfish? I must remember that next time I see a friend or family member mowed down by a passing bus hock:
Kyu

I wasn't "getting almost into Buddhism " but expressing a fundamental Buddhist (and Hindu) belief; that attachment causes suffering.

Grief isn't selfish? What is it then? Unselfish? What is it you mourn? NOT your loss? Be interested in an alternative rational explanation.

Nor do I accept that suffering enobles or that we necessarily learn anything positive from suffering.The most important lesson I've learned from suffering is to avoid it whenever I can.

So far my fear of dying has outweighed any suffering I've experienced,albeit not by much a couple of times.Should the situation change,I will leave.

Kyu I'm not suggesting for second that you should agree with my perception. I ask only that you disagree with civility.It was not my intention to offend you.

(March 9, 2009 at 11:46 pm)athoughtfulman Wrote:

(March 9, 2009 at 9:49 pm)padraic Wrote: @Mark;

Just so. Imo grief is an utterly selfish emotion based, one's feeling of loss of a person, thing or even idea to which one was attached.

Imo attachment is indeed a major cause of suffering. I can see how MY suffering can be the result of the attachment of others. (EG someone being attached to the belief that I'm an arsehole and deciding to hit me with a blunt instrument). But I don't see how my physical suffering is necessarily caused by my attachment. (I reject karma)

Now we're almost getting into Buddhism. Let go of attachment and you will never fear pain or losing anything. Essentially you will be as happy as you can be; or enlightened as some might say.

Attachment IS the cause of much evil, but also of much good. We will all miss our family, friends and pets when they die. Why? Because we loved them. If we wanted to do away with the pain of death, we would have to say goodbye to enjoyment, love, proper fulfilment, etc. I know it's painful, but I believe it's the good that makes the bad. This is why I don't think heaven is possible to exist. Ambition and the desire which has driven mankind for thousands of years to improve only exists in the face of dissatisfaction. If we were to be completely content (as heaven supposedly will be...), then all progress would halt. We would be completely comfortable with what we were doing, where we were, how we were living, etc. Good music can only be written because we have knowledge of bad music. Good art is the same. Good anything is the same.

But in heaven? Everyone's happy, so everyone's music is good, everyone's art is good, everyone's everything is good. Humans become robots when perfect and lose every ounce of self-expression and the ability or desire to improve themselves. But if heaven wasn't perfect, then it's not really heaven, just another earth. Even if it did exist, and everyone was perfectly happy, I'd rather be in hell, appreciating good and bad.

I wouldn't swap the pain for anything. The pain is nothing good, but I would rather have it present. I want to know where I can improve. I want to be able to love. I want to be able to feel sad. Angry. And every other human emotion.

Overall at least - I think that's a really great post mate

EvF

(March 10, 2009 at 6:52 am)padraic Wrote: Kyu I'm not suggesting for second that you should agree with my perception. I ask only that you disagree with civility.It was not my intention to offend you.

Er, since when was cynicism uncivil?

You didn't offend me.

Kyu

(March 10, 2009 at 6:52 am)padraic Wrote:

(March 10, 2009 at 5:00 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Grief is selfish? I must remember that next time I see a friend or family member mowed down by a passing bus hock:
Kyu

I wasn't "getting almost into Buddhism " but expressing a fundamental Buddhist (and Hindu) belief; that attachment causes suffering.

Grief isn't selfish? What is it then? Unselfish? What is it you mourn? NOT your loss? Be interested in an alternative rational explanation.

Nor do I accept that suffering enobles or that we necessarily learn anything positive from suffering.The most important lesson I've learned from suffering is to avoid it whenever I can.

So far my fear of dying has outweighed any suffering I've experienced,albeit not by much a couple of times.Should the situation change,I will leave.

Kyu I'm not suggesting for second that you should agree with my perception. I ask only that you disagree with civility.It was not my intention to offend you.

If you look at things like that, almost anything can be portrayed to be selfish. In the end, there is nothing humans can really do which does not at some point come back to their personal agenda. Even with 'selfless' acts. Why? Maybe the person wants to be known as selfish. The point is that once we start looking at grief as selfish, it becomes a negative emotion, which it shouldn't. Grief is natural. Wouldn't it seem a little strange to us if no one cared when someone died, even if it was their mum or dad?

Point taken, and from a point of view it's selfish, but I hardly feel like that's the right or the proper way to see it.

But can I just ask, have you never learnt a thing from suffering? Not one, tiny, itsy, bitsy lesson about something? And why does your fear of dying outweigh the suffering? The pain and suffering of dying? Or the nothingness?

@thoughtful
I have never learned anything positive from suffering. Physical suffering is just suffering. It teaches you not to put your hand into the fire ,and to see a doctor. Emotional suffering has made me cynical

I do not fear being dead it's not an experience. However, like human beings generally I fear dying.It's not a choice,but forms part of my instinct for survival. I'm sure there are exceptions,there are for most general principles


@Kyu

I took your cynical response as sarcasm.

Imo there is no 'right' way to look at life,only a series of different ways.

My life philosophy is that of egoist, skeptic, cynic and misanthropist. To say X Y or Z is selfish is an an observation,not a judgment.

You claim that in some ways grief is not selfish. Although I believe you believe that,I honestly can't get my head around the claim. Could you explain what you see about grief which is not about loss,IE the person grieving?