(January 5, 2016 at 3:53 pm)*Deidre* Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 3:27 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I believe the Sun does have a spirit/perception/knowledge. I would not worship it however simply because no matter how great a being is, all beings and all possibilities of beings, cannot compare to the absolute. Because my reverence for the absolute is so much higher then everything else, and everything else pales in comparison to it, and worship as I understand is meant to be used for highest reverence we have for beings, I will not worship anything else. Nothing can be a god to me, because it has no level close to God.

You seem very grounded and at peace, Mystic. Consistent. I admire this.

Thanks for your kind words. I'm not sure I am closer to peace or distress, closer to chaos or balance in my life, but I definitely know I need to improve my life and change my lifestyle soon.

Pray for me.

(January 5, 2016 at 3:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(January 5, 2016 at 3:53 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: You seem very grounded and at peace, Mystic. Consistent. I admire this.

Thanks for your kind words. I'm not sure I am closer to peace or distress, closer to chaos or balance in my life, but I definitely know I need to improve my life and change my lifestyle soon.

Pray for me.

Life is all about balancing both really. Before peace, there's chaos. Before peace, there is distress. You'll find your way, I know it. 

(December 30, 2015 at 10:17 am)*Deidre* Wrote: If you were ever a theist/believer, what led you to no longer believe? Not looking to preach, that’s not my thing and it’s against rules anyway, but just curious. I remember my own journey over the past few years with it all, and just thought it’d be interesting to hear your ‘stories’ if you were once believers before identifying as an atheist. 

On my 5th re-reading of the Bible, I noticed that there were 2 versions of The Ten Commandments and asked myself, paraphrasing: Why would God need 2 versions of The Ten Commandments. Not what made me an atheist, but got the ball rolling, so-to-speak. Took me 4 grueling years to finally shed my god-belief.

There were a number of reasons for me.

First, it was looking around after having spent my whole life in church and realizing that I didn't know anyone whose life had really been "transformed" by salvation.  I knew people whose lives changed after getting into religion, but nothing that I would call "miraculous".  It seemed to me that people changed because they wanted to change.  Furthermore, they seemed to ONLY change in those areas where they felt that change was necessary.  I saw people who were "delivered" of addictions, but retained more insidious traits that they didn't seem the least bit concerned about.

Furthermore, I sincerely tried to "get saved" many times but never felt anything.  It seemed to make no difference at all.  I never felt confident that anything had actually happened.  I was baptized twice and just couldn't have that blissful meaningful moment that others seemed to be having.  Also, any change that did occur was because I willed it to occur.  If I stopped sinning sexually, it was because I told myself "This is a sin" and willed myself to stop doing it... for a while.   There was never anything that gave me any additional strength.

Despite being raised as a Pentecostal (aka "holy roller") I saw no evidence that any of the Holy Spirit Baptism experience that I was witnessing were true.  I saw people falling, dancing, laughing in the spirit, speaking in tongues, prophesying...yet, underneath the surface they were just the same petty people who would turn around from talking in tongues and stick a knife in the back of one of their brethren.

It was pressed upon me to get baptised in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.  I tried.  One night a friend and I stayed at church for 10 hours straight doing nothing but praying and singing hymns, trying to call down the fire of God.  Finally, I remember just bursting into tears and not knowing why.  My friend started jibbering.  I thought he was talking in tongues.  Then, he stopped and came and started praying for me to speak in tongues.  I stopped crying and started making jibberish sounds, trying to talk in tongues.  Finally he said, "You spoke in tongues" and I said "No, it didn't happen... I was just making noises, but I heard you speaking in tongues."  He also denied this and said that he had not.  Yet, members of my church who heard our story afterward, who weren't even there when all of this occurred, assured us that we HAD spoken in tongues.  The pastor told me that speaking in tongues has nothing to do with God taking control of me, but that I just need to open my mouth and start speaking and have faith that it's God.

Beyond the experiential, I began to see that certain aspects of my faith made no sense.

For example, if God is all-knowing and all-loving and his will is what I should be striving for, what sense does it make for me to pray for anything?  Wouldn't that be like a child going to his father and saying "Dad, would you go to work today so we can have money to buy groceries so I can eat?"  Any loving father would say "Son, you don't have to ask me that.  I've got it taken care of.  Just trust me."  Thus, I realized that it made no sense to pray for anything because ultimately I was just a silly child who didn't know what to ask for anyway. 

Finally, I began to reason that if God is Truth, then Truth is God.  That means that there's no reason to hide from ideas that have traditionally been considered faith-breaking.  Truth can only confirm God, right?  Thus, I disembarked to prove my God and found the evidence took me to a different conclusion entirely...

(January 5, 2016 at 4:59 pm)Sal Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 10:17 am)*Deidre* Wrote: If you were ever a theist/believer, what led you to no longer believe? Not looking to preach, that’s not my thing and it’s against rules anyway, but just curious. I remember my own journey over the past few years with it all, and just thought it’d be interesting to hear your ‘stories’ if you were once believers before identifying as an atheist. 

On my 5th re-reading of the Bible, I noticed that there were 2 versions of The Ten Commandments and asked myself, paraphrasing: Why would God need 2 versions of The Ten Commandments. Not what made me an atheist, but got the ball rolling, so-to-speak. Took me 4 grueling years to finally shed my god-belief.

I'm sorry you suffered like that. Why do you think it took you four years to shed your belief? Was there anyone in your life that you were afraid of disappointing? Just wondering.

(January 5, 2016 at 5:16 pm)Old Baby Wrote: There were a number of reasons for me.

First, it was looking around after having spent my whole life in church and realizing that I didn't know anyone whose life had really been "transformed" by salvation.  I knew people whose lives changed after getting into religion, but nothing that I would call "miraculous".  It seemed to me that people changed because they wanted to change.  Furthermore, they seemed to ONLY change in those areas where they felt that change was necessary.  I saw people who were "delivered" of addictions, but retained more insidious traits that they didn't seem the least bit concerned about.

Furthermore, I sincerely tried to "get saved" many times but never felt anything.  It seemed to make no difference at all.  I never felt confident that anything had actually happened.  I was baptized twice and just couldn't have that blissful meaningful moment that others seemed to be having.  Also, any change that did occur was because I willed it to occur.  If I stopped sinning sexually, it was because I told myself "This is a sin" and willed myself to stop doing it... for a while.   There was never anything that gave me any additional strength.

Despite being raised as a Pentecostal (aka "holy roller") I saw no evidence that any of the Holy Spirit Baptism experience that I was witnessing were true.  I saw people falling, dancing, laughing in the spirit, speaking in tongues, prophesying...yet, underneath the surface they were just the same petty people who would turn around from talking in tongues and stick a knife in the back of one of their brethren.

It was pressed upon me to get baptised in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.  I tried.  One night a friend and I stayed at church for 10 hours straight doing nothing but praying and singing hymns, trying to call down the fire of God.  Finally, I remember just bursting into tears and not knowing why.  My friend started jibbering.  I thought he was talking in tongues.  Then, he stopped and came and started praying for me to speak in tongues.  I stopped crying and started making jibberish sounds, trying to talk in tongues.  Finally he said, "You spoke in tongues" and I said "No, it didn't happen... I was just making noises, but I heard you speaking in tongues."  He also denied this and said that he had not.  Yet, members of my church who heard our story afterward, who weren't even there when all of this occurred, assured us that we HAD spoken in tongues.  The pastor told me that speaking in tongues has nothing to do with God taking control of me, but that I just need to open my mouth and start speaking and have faith that it's God.

Beyond the experiential, I began to see that certain aspects of my faith made no sense.

For example, if God is all-knowing and all-loving and his will is what I should be striving for, what sense does it make for me to pray for anything?  Wouldn't that be like a child going to his father and saying "Dad, would you go to work today so we can have money to buy groceries so I can eat?"  Any loving father would say "Son, you don't have to ask me that.  I've got it taken care of.  Just trust me."  Thus, I realized that it made no sense to pray for anything because ultimately I was just a silly child who didn't know what to ask for anyway. 

Finally, I began to reason that if God is Truth, then Truth is God.  That means that there's no reason to hide from ideas that have traditionally been considered faith-breaking.  Truth can only confirm God, right?  Thus, I disembarked to prove my God and found the evidence took me to a different conclusion entirely...

Hi old baby, thank you sharing all of this. I've never really understood the concept of speaking in tongues. I always took it to mean that everyone was speaking in different languages and understood each other lol I'm sorry you went through all of that. In my view, the idea of God just can't be contained in a religion etc...in a neat little box. The way I view it is faith should be a positive, freeing experience, and for many, it is far from that, largely, because people want to control others through it. It's a personal experience for me, now.

Your story is interesting to me, and resonates. Again, thank you.

(January 5, 2016 at 5:16 pm)Old Baby Wrote: Despite being raised as a Pentecostal (aka "holy roller") I saw no evidence that any of the Holy Spirit Baptism experience that I was witnessing were true.  I saw people falling, dancing, laughing in the spirit, speaking in tongues, prophesying...yet, underneath the surface they were just the same petty people who would turn around from talking in tongues and stick a knife in the back of one of their brethren.

It was pressed upon me to get baptised in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues.  I tried.  One night a friend and I stayed at church for 10 hours straight doing nothing but praying and singing hymns, trying to call down the fire of God.  Finally, I remember just bursting into tears and not knowing why.  My friend started jibbering.  I thought he was talking in tongues.  Then, he stopped and came and started praying for me to speak in tongues.  I stopped crying and started making jibberish sounds, trying to talk in tongues.  Finally he said, "You spoke in tongues" and I said "No, it didn't happen... I was just making noises, but I heard you speaking in tongues."  He also denied this and said that he had not.  Yet, members of my church who heard our story afterward, who weren't even there when all of this occurred, assured us that we HAD spoken in tongues.  The pastor told me that speaking in tongues has nothing to do with God taking control of me, but that I just need to open my mouth and start speaking and have faith that it's God.

Ah, the holy rollin' memories. 

I attended Pentecostal services most of my churchgoing life, and I credit that as the source of some (not all) of my doubts towards religion. When I was baptized, I felt absolutely nothing. I sensed that everyone expected a nice show afterwards, but I didn't come through; no falling out, no tears, no elation. Nothing. For a  fleeting moment, I thought maybe I felt nothing, because there was nothing...but I quickly dismissed it. Should've ran with it, but I just chalked it up to being a result of my reserved nature.

I never attempted to speak in tongues myself, because I was never able to be convince myself that it was more than made-up gibberish. I made the mistake of sharing that with my mother once, who immediately asked if I thought she was making it up when she did it. When I told her "I believe that you believe you're speaking in tongues" she hit the roof. 

I got pressured into going up to the alter once, for extra special prayer with a side of olive oil, and finally felt something at long last: full blown panic. After getting slapped in the head with Extra Virgin, ten prayer warriors swarmed me like SWAT and proceeded to lay hands on me. They commenced with general hooting, hollering, and insane jibber-jabbering for several minutes, as my pastor invited/yelled for the Holy Spirit to do it's thing in me. I remember I felt hot. I felt nauseous. And I'm almost certain I felt my pastor trying to force me to fall to backwards.

But I never felt any Holy Spirit. Go figure.

It sounds like you guy just weren't impressionable enough. Some people can be tricked easily, especially in a group setting. Some are much harder to fool. (I'm referring to things like speaking in tongues and nonsense like that.)

(January 5, 2016 at 5:16 pm)Old Baby Wrote: Finally, I began to reason that if God is Truth, then Truth is God.  That means that there's no reason to hide from ideas that have traditionally been considered faith-breaking.  Truth can only confirm God, right?  Thus, I disembarked to prove my God and found the evidence took me to a different conclusion entirely...

Not that far-removed from my own experience, and my own reasoning.

Basically my 'Eureka' moment was when it occurred to me that Religion and God are not the same thing.

Religion tells you what they believe is the "Truth" about God.

That doesn't mean it REALLY IS the Truth.

And if it turns out that there really is a God,
and He really is synonymous with the Truth,
and that I failed to question the "Truth" that Religion was teaching, which was actually a pack of Lies,
then God/Truth is going to be pissed with me,
for not using the perfectly good brain that He gave me to use
to figure that shit out,
and that I chose instead to take the word of fallible human idiots.

Nice reasoning MTL!

It always shocks me how the message from religion is often to turn off the perfectly good brain God gave us, and just believe what we're told.

(January 6, 2016 at 3:30 pm)robvalue Wrote: Nice reasoning MTL!

It always shocks me how the message from religion is often to turn off the perfectly good brain God gave us, and just believe what we're told.

Cheers, Rob.