(February 27, 2011 at 3:58 pm)corndog36 Wrote:

(February 25, 2011 at 6:14 pm)apophenia Wrote: This poll seems tragically flawed. Atheism needs no reason because it is not a belief -- it is beliefs other than atheism which need reasons.

I agree that the poll is flawed, but not for the reason stated. Atheism is a belief because the non-existence of God can not be proven. Theories need reasons, belief without reason is faith.

The problem with this poll is that the arguments listed are reasons to disbelieve in religion, not reasons to believe in the non-existence of a supreme being, or entity or whatever. I vote 'other'.

The poll is reasons to not believe that theism is true. Deism is a different kettle of fish.

Deism is a form of theism.

(February 28, 2011 at 10:41 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Deism is a form of theism.

I should clarify, Theism in its specific meaning (relating to Montheism) and its more common but casual post 17th century usage. As opposed to its broadest meaning and its more formal dictionary definition(belief in at least one god) which includes Deism, Pantheism, Monotheism, Polytheism etc.

(February 28, 2011 at 10:09 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

(February 27, 2011 at 3:58 pm)corndog36 Wrote:

(February 25, 2011 at 6:14 pm)apophenia Wrote: This poll seems tragically flawed. Atheism needs no reason because it is not a belief -- it is beliefs other than atheism which need reasons.

I agree that the poll is flawed, but not for the reason stated. Atheism is a belief because the non-existence of God can not be proven. Theories need reasons, belief without reason is faith.

The problem with this poll is that the arguments listed are reasons to disbelieve in religion, not reasons to believe in the non-existence of a supreme being, or entity or whatever. I vote 'other'.

The poll is reasons to not believe that theism is true. Deism is a different kettle of fish.

I'm not sure if you intended to agree with me, but your comment seems to reiterate my point, and maybe I'm being too literal here but the distinction is important to my own beliefs. Agnostics reject religious beliefs, but are not certain that some sort of God does not exist. Atheism is the belief that no such entity exists. Disproving religion, does not disprove the existence of god, (small g). Perhaps I'm nitpicking on this, it was not my intention to sidetrack your thread, only to clarify my position on it.

that's the somewhat 'popular' use of the terms, they're technically wrong.

Atheism means "Without belief in god(s)" - From the Latin a(without) theos(belief in god(s))

Subsequently, Theism means "belief in god(s)"

Agnosticism means "Without knowledge" from the Latin a(without) gnosis(knowledge)

Therefore: An Agnostic Atheist is someone who does not believe in a god. a Gnostic atheist is someone who believes there is no god, one is a non-judgement and one is a judgement that a god does not exist.

A gnostic atheist isn't simply someone who believes that there is no god, a gnostic atheist is someone who believes that there is definitely no god. If you believe that there is probably or almost certainly no god that doesn't make you a gnostic atheist. Positive belief that there is no god is not enough to make you a gnostic atheist, you also have to believe that god is impossible. So, in other words, you claim to know that there is no god rather than merely believe that there is no god.

(February 28, 2011 at 12:32 pm)corndog36 Wrote:

(February 28, 2011 at 10:09 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

(February 27, 2011 at 3:58 pm)corndog36 Wrote:

(February 25, 2011 at 6:14 pm)apophenia Wrote: This poll seems tragically flawed. Atheism needs no reason because it is not a belief -- it is beliefs other than atheism which need reasons.

I agree that the poll is flawed, but not for the reason stated. Atheism is a belief because the non-existence of God can not be proven. Theories need reasons, belief without reason is faith.

The problem with this poll is that the arguments listed are reasons to disbelieve in religion, not reasons to believe in the non-existence of a supreme being, or entity or whatever. I vote 'other'.

The poll is reasons to not believe that theism is true. Deism is a different kettle of fish.

I'm not sure if you intended to agree with me, but your comment seems to reiterate my point, and maybe I'm being too literal here but the distinction is important to my own beliefs. Agnostics reject religious beliefs, but are not certain that some sort of God does not exist. Atheism is the belief that no such entity exists. Disproving religion, does not disprove the existence of god, (small g). Perhaps I'm nitpicking on this, it was not my intention to sidetrack your thread, only to clarify my position on it.

No not nitpicking at all. Its important. The poll really relates to the popular and technically incorrect view that Theism = Monotheism. Technically it isn't true, but in its common usage it is widely understood as such. Gnostic or strong atheism (and the poll lists some of the favoured arguments) can only play on the pitch if a god is defined (however poorly) as is the case in Xtianity, Judaism etc. Its hard to assert god does not exist in the case of deism as it is so poorly defined and amorphous. Usually deism comes from a general feeling that there is design and we are not here by accident, but says little or nothing about the 'god' that was responsible.

The poll says for you to state your favourite arguments for atheism, this includes any argument that goes against all forms of theism which includes polytheism and deism. An atheist is an amonotheist, apolytheist and adeist. An atheist is also an apantheist although some forms of pantheism are nothing more than metaphor.

Clearly I was being too literal in my interpretation of the question. Given the popular usage of terms as you have described my response to the poll would still be "Other". In studying the history and evolution of religion, it becomes clear that religion was created by man, for identifiable secular social and political reasons. For me the conclusion is inescapable: man created God, not the other way around.