(April 11, 2016 at 1:10 pm)Thena323 Wrote: Uh-oh..Did someone chat up a pretty gal and get disappointed today?

So, I almost choked on some home-made guacamole when I got to this post.

You rock, Thena m'dear.

(April 11, 2016 at 2:06 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 10:55 am)Chad32 Wrote: Because they're fully capable of functioning within society, as long as they're allowed to modify their body/style to fit how they see themselves... and they won't have more destructive issues later. If you don't allow them to express themselves properly, it will only make things worse. Higher suicide rates, for instance. Being gay or transgender doesn't make people more suicidal. How society treats them does.

The issue seems much more complicated that what either you or Drich have said. Mental health problems are often a constellation of issues and cannot be attributed to a single specific illness or cause. The problems associated with gender-dysphoria cannot be fully attributed to social attitudes. Most often the mentally ill are better served by accepting themselves as they are. That seems to me to be a very important difference between being gay and being transgendered. Positive self-acceptance for a gay person does not require a regime of hormonal treatments and/or invasive surgical procedures. Absent a serious physical illness, trying to change your existing biology to conform to how you think it "should be" is the exact opposite of self-acceptance.

Do you hold the same views with regard to, say, dieting? How about liposuction?

Implicit in your point here is that physiology is more important than mindset. Can you justify that in a rational manner without appeal to emotion?

The body is not the self. To argue otherwise is to adopt a materialistic mindset that you would abjure in almost any other case.

And just so it doesn't get forgotten, you are here advocating that "most often" mentally-ill people should just "deal with it". Would you then argue against treating bipolar disorder with lithium?

There are a few problems in your thinking here that do not comport with the image you wish to project. You might want to explain them?

(April 13, 2016 at 2:48 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(April 11, 2016 at 2:06 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The issue seems much more complicated that what either you or Drich have said. Mental health problems are often a constellation of issues and cannot be attributed to a single specific illness or cause. The problems associated with gender-dysphoria cannot be fully attributed to social attitudes. Most often the mentally ill are better served by accepting themselves as they are. That seems to me to be a very important difference between being gay and being transgendered. Positive self-acceptance for a gay person does not require a regime of hormonal treatments and/or invasive surgical procedures. Absent a serious physical illness, trying to change your existing biology to conform to how you think it "should be" is the exact opposite of self-acceptance.

Do you hold the same views with regard to, say, dieting? How about liposuction?

Implicit in your point here is that physiology is more important than mindset. Can you justify that in a rational manner without appeal to emotion?

The body is not the self. To argue otherwise is to adopt a materialistic mindset that you would abjure in almost any other case.

And just so it doesn't get forgotten, you are here advocating that "most often" mentally-ill people should just "deal with it". Would you then argue against treating bipolar disorder with lithium?

There are a few problems in your thinking here that do not comport with the image you wish to project. You might want to explain them?

Amazing isn't it, that someone who believes in dualism and the "soul" can't wrap his brain around being born in the "wrong body?" But, that's probably because Yahweh doesn't make mistakes, remember?

Oh, wait...

Yeah, but Drich isn't going to talk about treatment because if he did, have no choice but to admit he's being a closed-minded, ignorant fuck face about the issue. Or in Drich language, it's "not relevant" to his OP. [emoji848]

And since it bears repetition, quoting a book written by conversion therapists. 20 years ago, so even if they weren't biased right from the start, psychology has moved quite a bit forward since then.

(April 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm)BlackBird Wrote: I'm not sure what narrative I'm making up then. Let me know and I can address any misunderstanding I may have had.

I'm dealing with 30 different people. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

(April 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm)Vincent Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='1246241' dateline='1460482228']

So?

You do understand that you are a minority with in a minority, with in yet another minority? Meaning the first minority is that trans gendered people represent less than 1% of the total population. That is minority 1, Minority 2 is the fact that the Mayo Clinic cites the a fraction of the Transsexual community actually receives help. That is minority 2. Of those who do seek or receive help, a very small minority are stable. that is minority 3. Figuritivly speaking you and people like you are but a handful compared to the millions who suffer from GID and are not mentallly stable.

That said

Should the millions who are not 'mentally stable' dictate policy for those who are/ do not suffer a mental affliction? Or in your case of the thousands or maybe hundreds of people who have won their battle with GID in a position to dictate law to the 100's of millions even billions who do not suffer from this affliction in any way shape or form?

Don't be fooled by these other clowns who are trying to make this about your right to live your life. no. This discussion is about a minority of mentally ill people dictating living conditions to hundreds of million of people. And how that is supposed to make sense.

Quote:Um... I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here.

you people kill me. If you do not understand what is being said then how can you hope to produce a whole page of topical dialog?

What I'm saying is a minority of a fraction of the 1%ers who are transexual (those who are in treatment) should not be making policy for literally hundreds of millions of other people who do not nor ever suffered from a mental illness.

Quote:Minority 1 is irrelevant,

only if you do not understand the greater argument.

Quote:and minority 2 is either outdated or skewed. 

No, these facts are what the Mayo clinic have posted on their website.

Quote:I have spoken to many members of the transgender community. I have been amongst their communities. And most of the ones I know have spoken to therapists. NOT because they are mentally ill or experiencing trauma, but because the majority want to medically transition. And in order to do that, you need a consensual note from a therapist. And usually the therapist will withhold that note if he/she believes you are not emotionally capable of handling the medical transition process. And mind you, that preparedness they look for has less to do with your gender identity and more to do with outside influences (i.e. is your family okay with it, have you been going by your preferred pronouns, are you socially transitioned in at least 2 areas of your life, etc.). Unless they are dong it for attention (which I'm sure happens occasionally, in which case they are not really transgender and therefore data on them is not representative of the trans community), trans people tend to know they are trans, or at the very least are on the road to knowing and just need an extra push from a therapist. Most trans people have experienced symptoms of it since early childhood, about 3-4 and onwards. Most have dealt with gender dysphoria in some way throughout their lives. A therapist will not tell someone they're not trans. They won't try to convince them they are not, and they don't give out a certified test to make sure they are. 

lol... In what world does personal experience trump the research and help offered in the world's largest non-profit research and medical center?

Quote:It's very much like sexuality. You can't "cure" it because it's not a disease. It's just a part of the person. It probably will not satisfy a gay person to try to make them straight, as it will not satisfy a trans person to try to make them identify with the gender that matches their genitals. A person's gender identity is their gender identity. 

Wrong again. Just like gay people not everyone with GID wants to change their sexual orientation. For those who want to find peace with their birth sex, their is treatment available.

Quote:Some trans people experience more gender dysphoria (mental health professionals don't often use GID anymore - outdated term) than others.

Actually it's still the offical medical term. There is a push by the LGBT community to change the terminology to take GID out of the realm of mental illness, but so far the medical community has not sold it's integrity to the LGBTs yet.

Quote:And it CAN lead to depression. That is true. That is precisely why trans people seek to medically transition. That's what tends to turn them into happier individuals. 

again, so what, not apart of the discussion.

Quote:The thing that separates transgender from being a mental illness (at least, the way I see it) is treatment. In treating a disorder, you attack what's going wrong in the brain through cognitive and behavioral therapy. That's how OCD, schizophrenia, etc. are approached.

And so too is GID 'attacked' in those who do not want to 'transition.'

Quote: But to help a trans person, what happens? Mental health professionals seek to help them change their body.

Ah, no. the first thing a responsible doctor will do is try and determine if the individual wants to transition or not.

Quote: Because no matter what you do, a trans person will not be fully content with the body they have. Being transgender is not "curable" because, as psychiatrists have figured out, the brain is fine. The body is just out of alignment with it. That's why most people consider it a medical condition, in which the gender identity and the body don't match.

  Again no. Their are many triggers to GID and of the 'curable ones' (hormonal imbalance/brain chemistry imbalance) treatement has proven to be possible and some indivisuals go one to live very happy lives with their birth sex.
Again, treatment is based on what the person wants.

Quote:I don't understand what the rest of your post is saying and I have never heard any credible mental health professionals approach transgenderism with that hostile attitude so I am going to disregard it until further notice.

Yeah, because it is always a good idea to turn a blind eye to what you don't understand.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: In what world does personal experience trump the research and help offered in the world's largest non-profit research and medical center?

O. M. G!

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: Yeah, because it is always a good idea to turn a blind eye to what you don't understand.

You didn't mean to write that surely. Please tell me you didn't.

(April 13, 2016 at 9:08 am)Drich Wrote: you people kill me. If you do not understand what is being said then how can you hope to produce a whole page of topical dialog?

No, you obviously don't understand. Transgender people don't want to change their sexual orientation, as you said before. They want to change the body they're in to fit their mental gender. Transgender and gay are totally different matters. But of course you don't understand that. Why would you, being so deeply immersed in your religious prejudices and quoting conversion therapists as serious sources?

(April 13, 2016 at 7:48 am)abaris Wrote: And since it bears repetition, quoting a book written by conversion therapists. 20 years ago, so even if they weren't biased right from the start, psychology has moved quite a bit forward since then.

Is 2013 too old?
Again I always have 3 points of reference.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PTq8ZU...er&f=false

from page 40 forward supports what I've said here.