(May 6, 2016 at 10:30 am)abaris Wrote:

(May 6, 2016 at 10:19 am)SteveII Wrote: So, you are saying that you know why people become Christians and its not for the reasons they think. Do you really think that is a defensible position?

Yes. First, because there aren't only christians but an abundance of religions with christians making up a minority of the world's overall population. Not to speak of the thousands of different christian groups, sects and schisms. And secondly, as I have pointed out when saying I'm probably talking to a brick wall, do your homework on other social species and how they compare to us when it comes to seeking the security of a group.

You argued from the god of the gaps position. That's fine, you're not comfortable with simply not knowing all the inner workings of the universe. So your answer is to insert god. Your god, to be precise. Which isn't even the only christian god, going by all the different interpretations. But then you have to be comfortable being compared to the classic caveman. Not being able to explain anything in nature, therefore turning the unexplained into gods. It's the same position, only a few thousands of years later. Maybe from a higher level of knowledge, since I don't know what you even accept as scientific answers. If you're a young earth creationist, I'm done in any case, since it seems futile to debate that kind of position.

This does nothing to advance your argument: people choose Christianity for a sense of security, belonging and community. You have merely pointed out that a person has more choices than Christianity to fulfill those needs. 

I am not proposing an argument you need to refute to hold on to your beliefs. I am merely pointing out the typical reason why an adult would become a Christian. 

Actually, I kind of glad you are "done in any case.".

(May 6, 2016 at 10:51 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: If current trends continue, the USA will be 40% 'Nones' in 15 years, over 85% in 30. Do you believe this will happen? If not, why not?

How about a source for that so I can comment?

(May 5, 2016 at 6:05 pm)SteveII Wrote: It has come up in another thread that natural theology (philosophical arguments) are not the reason once becomes a Christian. Natural theology should be properly understood as support for the direct revelation and personal revelation from God (the Bible and personal relationship respectively).

I believe, especially for an adult not raised in a Christian home, it is the appeal of Jesus as a person coupled with his teachings that draws people. Why do these things resonate with a large number of people? 

It is obvious that we are somehow wired to believe in God/higher power/supernatural/purpose/destiny etc. Of course you will say this is a product of our evolution. There are several theories centered around the adaptive values of religion (social solidarity for one). However, these theories presuppose naturalism. So the result of this reasoning is that if God did exist or did not exist, we would still be wired to believe God exists. 

I think another reason this resonates with people is Jesus' main message that forgiveness, personal peace, a relationship with God, and eteral life is possible. 
a. there are a lot of people, who have had tough experiences that find the forgiveness and internal peace very appealing.
b. when you meet someone who has been a Christian a long time and exemplifies Jesus' teachings and shares how God has been a constant comfort and support to them in their daily lives, that is very appealing as well.
c. eternal life, how can you beat that? This component also helps you make sense/cope of the shortness of life, tragedies, and pain endured while we are here. 

Another appealing quality of Christianity is having the question of purpose and place in the universe answered. 
a. with atheism, at best, you are a happy accident with no overall purpose that will very shortly die and cease to exist.
b. contrast that with the purpose of man is to "Glorify God and enjoy him forever". We were created for a reason and daily life has purpose and you really want others to know what you have found. 

In addition, Jesus modeled his teachings of love, compassion, and forgiveness for your fellow man and in doing so set an example that, if aspired to, would result in a very fulfilling life. Perhaps you are not old enough, but once you contemplate the brevity of life, finding fulfillment becames important.

While I know the one-liners will start flying in a moment, please contemplate the point I made at the beginning: It is not the KCA, or where did life come from, or arguments about origins of morality that converts people to Christianity, it is Jesus and his message that does that and I thought it important to make that clear.

 Firstly, I think most Christians are indoctrinated from childhood and threatened with supernatural violence after death which is what helps them stay Christians .  It's also been spread via colonization.  Obviously we're talking about huge populations and general trends here, there are instances of conversions because people just liked the sound of a bit of the bible or quran.  But I think an overwhelming majority have been threatened with real or supernatual violence from a very young age to believe in their religion.

This isn't to say Jesus's messages were bad or that I disagree with them, just that Christians obviously don't want their children to go to hell so they tell them the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the sexually immoral, those who practice the magic arts the idolaters and the liars they will be consigned to the firey lake of sulphur
The same way any good believing Muslim who's a good parent doesn't want their child to go to hell so they tell them either you believe the quran or god will burn your flesh repeatedly on purpose so you will feel the pain.
Or at least you have to get these messages across at some point wouldn't you?  If I believed the words of the bible or the quran I'd have to get the message across to my children at some point that if they don't believe these books they will burn for an indefinite period of time.

Yeh people have a tenancy to be superstitious, I don't necessarily think this equals hardwiring to believe in god, there are tribes of people who believe in no god who never believed in god.  I don't have have to really go that far out of my own experience to think of some examples of people who don't seem to be hardwired to believe in god, I believed in god sort of when I was very young but I just kept questioning these weird unbelievable stories, and I had friends that just never ever took god seriously, as a joke in classes in my catholic school they would get down on their hands and knees and worship pictures of freddy kruger. 

I agree that Christianity and other religions provide purpose in life, and as an atheist it's important that this purpose is replaced by something.  But it's not impossible or even difficult to have another purpose other than religion, sometimes people can turn to unproductive or harmful purposes but it's basically a mixed bag.

Lastly, I don't remember much of the bible stories about Jesus but I'm sure they were very nice stories, the ones I do remember were very nice, but I still stand by my point I think most people are indoctrinated by threats of violence rather than liking the nice stories.

SteveII Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:If current trends continue, the USA will be 40% 'Nones' in 15 years, over 85% in 30. Do you believe this will happen? If not, why not?

How about a source for that so I can comment?

Sorry, it's so readily available that it didn't occur to me that you wouldn't easily find it yourself. Here you go:

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/

And in 15 years, if those China trends continue, Christians will be almost 20% of the Chinese population.

@The titular question:

They don't. They already are

SteveII Wrote:

abaris Wrote:We're not wired to believe. We're wired to seek security in belonging to a group, which is hardly surprising, given that we're a social species.

I'm probably talking to a brick wall here, but it would do some of you some good to look up newer research on other socials species.

The only part of your rather lenghty post I'm willing to accept, is the security part and the one about not being comfortable with not having all the answers. Classic god of the gaps. Classic cavemen, looking up at the sun and the moon, not being able to explain their nature and calling them gods. Yes, people want security, they want to feel cherrished and they want to be taken by the hand. But that's about all.

So, you are saying that you know why people become Christians and its not for the reasons they think. Do you really think that is a defensible position?

No one says 'I'm a Muslim because it's the dominant religion in my region'. Do you really think that it's not a major reason despite the fact that it's the most reliable indicator of a person's religion? Senegal has freedom of religion but it's 90% Muslim, if I guess a person from Senegal is Muslim, I'll be right 90% of the time. But they will say the same things about why they chose Islam that Christians do about why they chose Christianity, and really believe that it's a considered decision on their part. But it's highly likely that the reasons given in both cases are post hoc rationalizations for adopting the religion they've had the most exposure to.

That doesn't mean there aren't Christians and Muslim who DID arrive at their religion after careful consideration and a reasonably thorough investigation of the alternatives, but they're clearly not the norm.

(May 6, 2016 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: people choose Christianity for a sense of security, belonging and community.

But this is not a reason to believe in the supernatural baggage that comes along with Christianity. Religions prey on the human desire for security, belonging and community, all for the price of believing in ridiculous things and some form of tithe.

(May 6, 2016 at 11:22 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

SteveII Wrote:How about a source for that so I can comment?

Sorry, it's so readily available that it didn't occur to me that you wouldn't easily find it yourself. Here you go:

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/

And in 15 years, if those China trends continue, Christians will be almost 20% of the Chinese population.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/relig...2010-2050/

If you scroll down, you will see a chart that shows the change between 2015 and 2050. Christians in the US drop from 78.3% to 66.4%. Unaffiliated from 16.4% to 25.6%. Wolrdwide, Christians stay the same at 31.4% and unaffiliated drop from 16.4% to 13.2%.

And what are these unaffiliated? From your link: However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day.

What point are you trying to make?

(May 6, 2016 at 11:32 am)Time Traveler Wrote:

(May 6, 2016 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: people choose Christianity for a sense of security, belonging and community.

But this is not a reason to believe in the supernatural baggage that comes along with Christianity. Religions prey on the human desire for security, belonging and community, all for the price of believing in ridiculous things and some form of tithe.

That was not my assertion, that was Abaris' point.

SteveII Wrote:

Quote:You are probably right--a bias will form. Is your assertion that faith is a direct result of locale and upbringing? That does not make sense if at least 15% of Christians (in the US) become so as adults nor does it explain the tremendous growth of Christianity in Africa and China (which would presumably be a much higher rate of adult conversion. 

It seem like more of an opinion rather than a fact that Christians should just "accept".

15% of American Christians becoming so as adults in a country that's 70% Christian doesn't seem that mysterious to me. It's still the religion to which they have the most exposure.

Third World countries are particularly vulnerable to missionary conversion. The Mormons and Muslims have also had great success in Africa. Africa is about 53% Muslim, it was estimate in 2002 that they were about 45% of the population. What is missionary success supposed to prove, again?