I mean, Heatheness, back on topic, you can go around showing your breasts in the street. That is where you should start your fight. The staff works to preserve the forum integrity, the server is based somewhere there is a a law that makes boobs pornography. It becomes a liability. You need to drive your cruzade onto the street, not in a forum in the internet. I can always like a bare breasted women's manif.

I hope Heatheness agrees to post the PMs.

This is exactly why you do not have my trust. I know you won't but you too should step back and look at yourselves.

You can threaten and I can't keep you from posting a private message but remember your actions are also being observed here. I will not respond to threats. In this power exchange you have the power and I do not. Let see how your claim to not abuse that power holds up. Got to go.

Remember everyone, no matter the situation, Heatheness is the victim

No one is going to post your PM unless you want them to. There's no threat. Don't worry, you can keep lying and pretending to be the victim. Hopefully no one will notice the accusation you made in the open thread though. That might ruin your credibility.

(June 30, 2016 at 4:17 pm)Heatheness Wrote: This is exactly why you do not have my trust. I know you won't but you too should step back and look at yourselves.  

You can threaten and I can't keep you from posting a private message but remember your actions are also being observed here. I will not respond to threats. In this power exchange you have the power and I do not.  Let see how your claim to not abuse that power holds up. Got to go.

Yeah, actually you can because I can't do it without the permission of everyone involved.

Nobody is threatening you. We're simply pointing out that you're painting an entirely different picture than the accusations in PM.

(June 30, 2016 at 3:23 pm)Losty Wrote: I'm absolutely glad to agree to disagree with you here. I don't agree that this topic is important when it comes to equal rights for women on this forum. If you think it is, I respect your right to feel that way. And I respect your decision to not post your exposed chest. I will not post mine too.

Well, I don't think of the women here as oppressed because of this. But simply waving the point away doesn't answer it, and while it's not high on my list of things which demand improvement here immediately, I'd rather see her point addressed reasonably. As you can tell from my earlier posts in this thread, it's not that I'm unsympathetic to the Staff's position.

(June 30, 2016 at 3:23 pm)Losty Wrote: But you're looking at this as if you know everything and you don't.

No, I'm not. Not at all. I'm offering my opinion.

(June 30, 2016 at 3:23 pm)Losty Wrote: You can think me childish if you want. I don't think you would like it if someone accused you of being involved in a conspiracy to close their thread, especially if said conspiracy involved posting child pornography.

I was perfectly happy in this thread being silly, maybe but not mean or rude (I don't think) until that accusation was made.

I get that, and I'm not defending or supporting that accusation at all. I can understand anger at being unfairly accused; it's a hot-button for me as well.

(June 30, 2016 at 3:23 pm)Losty Wrote: I'm not defending that at all. I can understand anger at being unfairly accused; it's a hot-button for me as well.For the record, I would never ever use any method to try to get a thread closed accept for the appropriate method for when a thread violates rules. More importantly, I would never ever instigate or condone the posting of child pornography on this board or elsewhere ever. If I'm being overly sensitive for finding that accusation to be incredibly offensive then so be it. But I take it very seriously, as I well should considering the criminal nature of child pornography.

I understand, and I apologize if I didn't make it clear that I don't agree with or associate myself with that charge. I don't, and won't. I post here at AF on the premise that the Staff are acting in good faith. Seeing some of the behavior in this thread is for me a bit disheartening, is all. I think her basic point is that satisfyng the law is understandable and necessary, but the resistance from staff on considering a higher standard than that seems a little odd to me. There's value to holding free-speech as the sine qua non of a freethinking forum. There's also value to considering how the forum's policies might well be furthering an attitude that no doubt we all -- except for a couple of chauvinists here -- find unpleasant.

We all agree with the principle of the OP (mostly), but equally we are all bound by the fact that we welcome everyone to this forum, regardless of their age, and posting topless women is NSFW in many places where this site would be viewed.

Nothing we as a forum can do about that, and nothing, I might add, we're going to do about it as we continue to market this forum as 'family friendly'.

We are not the arbiters of the values of the various societies around the world. We also rely on some of the incomes produced by various sites that stipulate we adhere to the SFW policies they have. Maybe that would be a better place to start a challenge, no?

Yours sincerely,

Not someone who would conspire to post pedophillc pictures on a web forum to shut a silly, ultimately meaningless conversation down.

Thump Wrote:Well, I don't think of the women here as oppressed because of this. But simply waving the point away doesn't answer it, and while it's not high on my list of things which demand improvement here immediately, I'd rather see her point addressed reasonably.

My reasonable response is that while I agree whole heartedly that it is sexist to consider women's breasts pornographic but not men's, I do not think it beneficial or appropriate to ban photos of topless men because they're neither pornographic nor harmful. If individual members should choose to refrain from posting images of topless men as a symbol of solidarity, I think that's fantastic. I don't personally choose that, and perhaps that makes me a sexist. I don't think so, but I'm okay with others thinking it does.

(June 30, 2016 at 5:08 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: We all agree with the principle of the OP (mostly), but equally we are all bound by the fact that we welcome everyone to this forum, regardless of their age, and posting topless women is NSFW in many places where this site would be viewed.

Nothing we as a forum can do about that, and nothing, I might add, we're going to do about it as we continue to market this forum as 'family friendly'.

We are not the arbiters of the values of the various societies around the world. We also rely on some of the incomes produced by various sites that stipulate we adhere to the SFW policies they have. Maybe that would be a better place to start a challenge, no?

Yours sincerely,

Not someone who would conspire to post pedophillc pictures on a web forum to shut a silly, ultimately meaningless conversation down.

You're still avoiding the point, which is not that topless pics of women shoud be permitted, but that the guys here should be held to the same standard. As I've already said several times, I understand that the forum must comply with the law. I think her point is that the law should not be the limit of the rules, if it doesn't reflect the attitude of the Staff.

If the Staff is committed to equality, surely they are able to craft limitations beyond the bare minimum of the law, no?

Hey, if the Staff and wider membership simply don't want to do that, that's okay. But waving the law around when it has been made plain that that is not the end-point but the start-point is not really addressing the issue.

What is legal is not necessarily the definition of what is right. Heatheness is offering up her own definition. Rather than gang-tackle her, perhaps simply listening might reduce tensions?

I'm in a hard spot myself right now; I consider her a friend, and I consider Losty a friend, and I'm trying my best to see both sides, and work to smoothing the interaction.