(July 4, 2016 at 2:56 pm)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: Why should anyone care what Jesus said?

You should care. Isn't it your goal to show all the feeble-minded Christians how wrong they are? Shouldn't you know what it is they believe in before you decimate them with your rhetorical and logical skills you developed by reading some atheist blog and a couple of YouTube videos? How else will the 'truth triumph'?

(July 5, 2016 at 3:13 am)robvalue Wrote: Loving god is nothing to do with morality. It's more to do with god's ego and neediness. In fact, the idea of loving god ahead of actual people is a very dangerous and immoral thing to do in my opinion. It's dangerous because you're compromising how you treat others for the benefit of a being which should require absolutely nothing from you, if it even existed.

How did you come to that conclusion (that it is about God's ego and neediness)?  You seem to be of the understanding, that loving God, and loving others, is in conflict, where do you see this as being so?  Quite some time ago, I was reflecting on this, and I think that this kind of attitude, is somewhat responsible for the some of the social problems, that we are seeing today, especially younger generations.  For parents, teaching children to respect them, to respect their authority, and to respect others is a good thing.  Even something simple as a social nicety of saying "thank you" is not about your "ego or neediness".  It is about making them a better person.

Quote:It comes down to whether something is good because so and so said it is good, or because it's actually moral. In the first case it's circular and meaningless; in the second case, the authority is irrelevant. I figured out morality just fine on my own without having to read it in an ancient book. And it's no surprise that (nice) Christians ignore huge swathes of the supposed morality taught by their own book.  You don't need god for morality. You generally just need reason and empathy, as building blocks.

I see that you are finally starting to acknowledge, that morality is not subjective in these statements.   This is good!  However, I would disagree, that authority is irrelevant.   Could you clarify?   I would also agree, that one doesn't need the Bible to know good and evil.  That one can do good, apart from the Judeo/Christian traditions.  That is not what the argument of morality is about.  It is also known as the "problem of good"  That one's worldview, accounts for a basis for objective morality.  This is near impossible for the materialist, and exceedingly difficult from a non-deist worldview.  

To your charge that "Christians ignore huge swathes", I don't disagree, that some do ignore parts (and some may call themselves Christians, although they are not deserving of the description).  However, I don't think it is necessary to ignore anything.  While Scripture does contain moral guidance, it is not a moral handbook, that contains everything needed to be good; nor that every command is directly a moral edict.   I think this is a misunderstanding of it's purpose.

(July 5, 2016 at 9:34 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 4, 2016 at 2:56 pm)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: Why should anyone care what Jesus said?

You should care. Isn't it your goal to show all the feeble-minded Christians how wrong they are? Shouldn't you know what it is they believe in before you decimate them with your rhetorical and logical skills you developed by reading some atheist blog and a couple of YouTube videos? How else will the 'truth triumph'?

Yes, if most of the world hadn't been indoctrinated, brainwashed, duped, conned, deluded, retarded, divided and stultified by religion then I would have no reason to care about Bronze Age mythology and the sayings of some Palestinian hippy carpenter any more than about Zeus, Apollo, Odin or any other ancient mythologies.

Unfortunately, many people are gullible, many people are not good at critical thinking, many people don't question the belief systems they were brought up with.

Unfortunately we do live in a world torn apart by religion, where religion holds back our civilisation at every step.

So yes, in that sense you are correct, I do think it's worth understanding what the Bible says in exactly the same way as it is worth understanding the tactics of a con artist, so that when you are faced with it you aren't duped, and can expose it for what it is: bullshit.

(July 5, 2016 at 9:29 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: So what is 'good' about righteousness? Why should anyone ultimately care about it?

What is morally right? Is it just what God wants?

Plato asked "how ought I to live my life?". Your system of morality will answer that question so it's important to pick the right ontology. 

Christians believe that moral perfection is a property of God. God does not choose to be morally perfect, he is because it's part of the essence of being God. Because we are made in his image, we are born being aware of basic right and wrong. God reveals this morality though revelation (both Old and New Testaments). Humans encounter many situations that are not found in the Bible, so basic principles of morality are extracted and used to apply to the new situation. Is that process flawless, no.

Entirely circular, and an equivocation to suggest it has anything to do with what we generally think of as morality (caring about wellbeing).

If it does, the "God" part is redundant.

(July 5, 2016 at 11:09 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 5, 2016 at 9:29 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: So what is 'good' about righteousness? Why should anyone ultimately care about it?

What is morally right? Is it just what God wants?

Plato asked "how ought I to live my life?". Your system of morality will answer that question so it's important to pick the right ontology. 

Christians believe that moral perfection is a property of God. God does not choose to be morally perfect, he is because it's part of the essence of being God. Because we are made in his image, we are born being aware of basic right and wrong. God reveals this morality though revelation (both Old and New Testaments). Humans encounter many situations that are not found in the Bible, so basic principles of morality are extracted and used to apply to the new situation. Is that process flawless, no.

So, genocide is morally perfect?

(July 5, 2016 at 3:13 am)robvalue Wrote: Loving god is nothing to do with morality. It's more to do with god's ego and neediness. In fact, the idea of loving god ahead of actual people is a very dangerous and immoral thing to do in my opinion. It's dangerous because you're compromising how you treat others for the benefit of a being which should require absolutely nothing from you, if it even existed.

It comes down to whether something is good because so and so said it is good, or because it's actually moral. In the first case it's circular and meaningless; in the second case, the authority is irrelevant.I figured out morality just fine on my own without having to read it in an ancient book. And it's no surprise that (nice) Christians ignore huge swathes of the supposed morality taught by their own book.

You don't need god for morality. You generally just need reason and empathy, as building blocks.

I had also just said all this on the last page.

(July 5, 2016 at 9:51 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: While Scripture does contain moral guidance, it is not a moral handbook, that contains everything needed to be good; nor that every command is directly a moral edict.

So where do you get your moral handbook from?

(July 5, 2016 at 11:09 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 5, 2016 at 9:29 am)Veritas_Vincit Wrote: So what is 'good' about righteousness? Why should anyone ultimately care about it?

What is morally right? Is it just what God wants?

Plato asked "how ought I to live my life?". Your system of morality will answer that question so it's important to pick the right ontology. 

Christians believe that moral perfection is a property of God. God does not choose to be morally perfect, he is because it's part of the essence of being God. Because we are made in his image, we are born being aware of basic right and wrong. God reveals this morality though revelation (both Old and New Testaments). Humans encounter many situations that are not found in the Bible, so basic principles of morality are extracted and used to apply to the new situation. Is that process flawless, no.

Bolding mine.

So how do you account for sociopathy and psychopathy? Genes? Bad parenting? Sin?

Yeah, I never get an answer to that one.

God forgets sometimes? Or expects some people to just guess or copy other people?

It is ironically the only time a handbook of morality would be any use. Assuming it contains good advice, which these things don't. Can you imagine a psycopath reading the bible?