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Maybe the numbering of our current calender is of some importance. How many nobodies get there birthday enumerated around the world.
Maybe consider what Jesus taught as being so different from the other religious entities you may have studied.
1. Jesus did not kill anybody
2. Jesus taught wisdom about love and kindness that is admireable
3. Jesus did not want us to kill anybody
4. Forgiveness is a wonderful concept and only someone filled with love would want to demonstrate that.
5. This man was humble.
6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would
lie about the rest of what He taught.
If a man taught about standards that we have to struggle to accomplish, even if we know the ideals are true, where did His great wisdom come from.
Jesus did not teach the old testament. Jesus referred to the old only to compare with something which was not needed anymore. The old testament is where most of the killing and unfair things are found that most of us may agree is not a good place to demonstrate love.
I mention these things not to establish historically documented evidence, but instead offer reasons to accept the validity of higher ideals for which we are in search in guidance for our life. Are the values that Jesus taught worth following? We value love, kindness, patience, humility, honesty, virtue, etc. These and other ideals are what Jesus taught. If someone like He could teach these admireable things, I believe that it would not be hard for me to believe the rest of what He taught. It is a matter of trust. What liar would spend so much of His life teaching all of these ideals. If history can't prove who he is, then try out the contents of His wisdom. The more I test these things, the more trust I can put into the unproveable things that He said. That is the faith part(trust part)
May 2, 2011 at 11:41 pm (This post was last modified: May 2, 2011 at 11:46 pm by Minimalist.)
Quote:I mention these things not to establish historically documented evidence
Good, because you'd be out of your element if you did.
Learn about the 6th century Russian monk (Dionysius Exiguus - Dennis the Short) who created your precious calendar and based it on the flawed knowledge of your silly bible.
May 3, 2011 at 12:09 am (This post was last modified: May 3, 2011 at 12:11 am by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Quote:6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would lie about the rest of what He taught.
No true Scotsman fallacy. Plus, Christian moral teachings are neither true nor false. They are a moral code which millions of people cherry pick to suit. The miraculous elements seem to be mythology,in the absence of any evidence whatsoever.
Quote:5. This man was humble.
Well actually he could be a bit of an arrogant turd, if you accept the New Testament. Perhaps begin with 'the dark sayings of Jesus'.
Quote:1. Jesus did not kill anybody
We don't know that.
Quote:4. Forgiveness is a wonderful concept and only someone filled with love would want to demonstrate that.
Bollocks.No true Scotsman again.
That forgiveness is a wonderful thing as a principle is a statement of moral belief,not of fact. Forgiveness can be very a powerful pragmatic tactic. EG Julius Caesar used it sometimes against his political enemies.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe the numbering of our current calender is of some importance. How many nobodies get there birthday enumerated around the world.
Not relevent, since the 25th of December can't conclusively be proved to be his birthday.
(May 2, 2011 at 8:57 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: Use of word evidence when one really means scientific evidence? Check.
Demands for proof? Check.
Absence of bungee cord? Check.
Seems like a typical atheist so far. Looks like he's already dived, so it's a little late for me to assist *twirls bungee cord in circles because it makes funny noises*.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe the numbering of our current calender is of some importance. How many nobodies get there birthday enumerated around the world.
Min's already dispensed with this one. They came up with the date in the 6th century.
Quote:2. Jesus taught wisdom about love and kindness that is admireable
Luke 12:51 Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!
Luke 14:26 If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Quote:3. Jesus did not want us to kill anybody
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (This was the parable of the talents but the king is a metaphor for Jesus in his reign).
Matthew 10:34 I have not come to bring peace but a sword.
Quote:4. Forgiveness is a wonderful concept and only someone filled with love would want to demonstrate that.
Following his rejection in certain cities, Jesus was known to condemn them all. Hardly forgiving or someone filled with love:
Matthew 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Quote: 5. This man was humble.
Chapter and verse?
Quote:6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would lie about the rest of what He taught.
Mark 4:10-12 When he was alone, those around him and the Twelve asked him about the parables. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: 'But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.'
(Sounds like a deceptive guy to me)
Quote:If a man taught about standards that we have to struggle to accomplish, even if we know the ideals are true, where did His great wisdom come from.
Ancient Greek philosophers and the Old Testament.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:
Quote:Jesus did not teach the old testament.
Matthew 5:18 In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law.
Matthew 5:20 I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Quote:What liar would spend so much of His life teaching all of these ideals.
Ever seen "The Road to El Dorado"?
The movie features two rogues, Miguel and Tulio who find themselves proclaimed gods by the hidden tribe of El Dorado. At first, their plan is to use their divine influence to steal as much gold as they can. Pretty shifty characters, right? But then Miguel connects with the people and sees a cruel religion in place. He preaches an end to sacrifices, denounces the priests and creates a more loving and gentle religion in its place.
This movie wasn't intended to establish any arguments about Jesus. It was intended to entertain. Nonetheless, it underscores how Liar, Lunatic, Lord trilemma is a false one. People who tell lies are capable of feeling compassion and creating rules that admonish love and peace.
The entire technique of the trilemma is to start with a desired conclusion, over simplify to create a limited number of alternatives and then strawman the alternatives to lead to the desired conclusion.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe the numbering of our current calender is of some importance. How many nobodies get there birthday enumerated around the world.
Min's already dispensed with this one. They came up with the date in the 6th century.
Quote:2. Jesus taught wisdom about love and kindness that is admireable
Luke 12:51 Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!
Luke 14:26 If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Quote:3. Jesus did not want us to kill anybody
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (This was the parable of the talents but the king is a metaphor for Jesus in his reign).
Matthew 10:34 I have not come to bring peace but a sword.
Quote:4. Forgiveness is a wonderful concept and only someone filled with love would want to demonstrate that.
Following his rejection in certain cities, Jesus was known to condemn them all. Hardly forgiving or someone filled with love:
Matthew 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Quote: 5. This man was humble.
Chapter and verse?
Quote:6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would lie about the rest of what He taught.
Mark 4:10-12 When he was alone, those around him and the Twelve asked him about the parables. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: 'But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.'
(Sounds like a deceptive guy to me)
Quote:If a man taught about standards that we have to struggle to accomplish, even if we know the ideals are true, where did His great wisdom come from.
Ancient Greek philosophers and the Old Testament.
Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:
Quote:Jesus did not teach the old testament.
Matthew 5:18 In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law.
Matthew 5:20 I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Quote:What liar would spend so much of His life teaching all of these ideals.
Ever seen "The Road to El Dorado"?
The movie features two rogues, Miguel and Tulio who find themselves proclaimed gods by the hidden tribe of El Dorado. At first, their plan is to use their divine influence to steal as much gold as they can. Pretty shifty characters, right? But then Miguel connects with the people and sees a cruel religion in place. He preaches an end to sacrifices, denounces the priests and creates a more loving and gentle religion in its place.
This movie wasn't intended to establish any arguments about Jesus. It was intended to entertain. Nonetheless, it underscores how Liar, Lunatic, Lord trilemma is a false one. People who tell lies are capable of feeling compassion and creating rules that admonish love and peace.
The entire technique of the trilemma is to start with a desired conclusion, over simplify to create a limited number of alternatives and then strawman the alternatives to lead to the desired conclusion.
May 3, 2011 at 10:31 am (This post was last modified: May 3, 2011 at 10:35 am by reverendjeremiah.)
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe the numbering of our current calender is of some importance. How many nobodies get there birthday enumerated around the world.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe consider what Jesus taught as being so different from the other religious entities you may have studied. .
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 1. Jesus did not kill anybody.
Bullcrap
Jesus Wrote:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
Not to mention he claims he is the old testament God, which not only ordered rapes and killings, but killed people himself. Killed children with a bear, killed a man for picking up sticks to cook for his children, I can go on and on.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 2. Jesus taught wisdom about love and kindness that is admireable.
LMFAO, dude, you must be selectively reading that bible. Last I checked he commanded his believers to kill anyone who didnt want Jesus to be lord over their lives. That isnt love and kindness
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 3. Jesus did not want us to kill anybody.
Except those who refused to worship him, and if he is also the oldtestament god, then he has a HUGE list of people he wants killed. Everything on the ten commandments is punishable by death, yes, including the specific command to stone children to death who refuse to honor their father. Jesus even comes down in his flying horse in Revelations and personally cuts off the heads of many unbelievers INCLUDING THEIR SLAVES (who had no choice).
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 4. Forgiveness is a wonderful concept and only someone filled with love would want to demonstrate that..
A god who creates Hell has no idea of forgiveness. Hell is so full of love, wisdom and kindness.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 5. This man was humble..
Sure..I tend to consider those who try to claim they are a god who deserves to be worshipped as "humble"
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would
lie about the rest of what He taught..
I think he could outright lie in your face and you would ignore it just as long as he made you think that you will be going to heaven when you died.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: If a man taught about standards that we have to struggle to accomplish, even if we know the ideals are true, where did His great wisdom come from.
Its idiots staements like this that helped me move away from christianity
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Jesus did not teach the old testament. Jesus referred to the old only to compare with something which was not needed anymore. The old testament is where most of the killing and unfair things are found that most of us may agree is not a good place to demonstrate love.
Matthew 5:17= "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." So yes, he fully supported the old testament laws and stories. Which means you are either an ignorant asshat or a liar.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: I mention these things not to establish historically documented evidence,
Because you cant
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: but instead offer reasons to accept the validity of higher ideals for which we are in search in guidance for our life.
You are actually asking me to accept LOWER ideals than the one I already have if I were to accept Jesus. Life is what I make it, not what someone tells me to do.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Are the values that Jesus taught worth following?
Nope.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: We value love, kindness, patience, humility, honesty, virtue, etc.
I dont see ANY of this when I read the gospels.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: These and other ideals are what Jesus taught. If someone like He could teach these admireable things, I believe that it would not be hard for me to believe the rest of what He taught.
Humans have taught these exact same things thousands of years before Jesus was invented..so, you are a liar. I know for a fact you will not believe the other things they said because of it. Another liar for christ..its quite common actually.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: It is a matter of trust. What liar would spend so much of His life teaching all of these ideals. If history can't prove who he is, then try out the contents of His wisdom. The more I test these things, the more trust I can put into the unproveable things that He said. That is the faith part(trust part)
Obviously you would. You would make shit up as you go. Which is pretty much what you are doing now. Making shit up as you go is what liars do. And from reading this post, I have LESS trust in your "testing" of things.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe the numbering of our current calender is of some importance. How many nobodies get there birthday enumerated around the world.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe consider what Jesus taught as being so different from the other religious entities you may have studied. .
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 1. Jesus did not kill anybody.
Bullcrap
Jesus Wrote:But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
Not to mention he claims he is the old testament God, which not only ordered rapes and killings, but killed people himself. Killed children with a bear, killed a man for picking up sticks to cook for his children, I can go on and on.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 2. Jesus taught wisdom about love and kindness that is admireable.
LMFAO, dude, you must be selectively reading that bible. Last I checked he commanded his believers to kill anyone who didnt want Jesus to be lord over their lives. That isnt love and kindness
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 3. Jesus did not want us to kill anybody.
Except those who refused to worship him, and if he is also the oldtestament god, then he has a HUGE list of people he wants killed. Everything on the ten commandments is punishable by death, yes, including the specific command to stone children to death who refuse to honor their father. Jesus even comes down in his flying horse in Revelations and personally cuts off the heads of many unbelievers INCLUDING THEIR SLAVES (who had no choice).
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 4. Forgiveness is a wonderful concept and only someone filled with love would want to demonstrate that..
A god who creates Hell has no idea of forgiveness. Hell is so full of love, wisdom and kindness.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 5. This man was humble..
Sure..I tend to consider those who try to claim they are a god who deserves to be worshipped as "humble"
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: 6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would
lie about the rest of what He taught..
I think he could outright lie in your face and you would ignore it just as long as he made you think that you will be going to heaven when you died.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: If a man taught about standards that we have to struggle to accomplish, even if we know the ideals are true, where did His great wisdom come from.
Its idiots staements like this that helped me move away from christianity
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Jesus did not teach the old testament. Jesus referred to the old only to compare with something which was not needed anymore. The old testament is where most of the killing and unfair things are found that most of us may agree is not a good place to demonstrate love.
Matthew 5:17= "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." So yes, he fully supported the old testament laws and stories. Which means you are either an ignorant asshat or a liar.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: I mention these things not to establish historically documented evidence,
Because you cant
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: but instead offer reasons to accept the validity of higher ideals for which we are in search in guidance for our life.
You are actually asking me to accept LOWER ideals than the one I already have if I were to accept Jesus. Life is what I make it, not what someone tells me to do.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Are the values that Jesus taught worth following?
Nope.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: We value love, kindness, patience, humility, honesty, virtue, etc.
I dont see ANY of this when I read the gospels.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: These and other ideals are what Jesus taught. If someone like He could teach these admireable things, I believe that it would not be hard for me to believe the rest of what He taught.
Humans have taught these exact same things thousands of years before Jesus was invented..so, you are a liar. I know for a fact you will not believe the other things they said because of it. Another liar for christ..its quite common actually.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: It is a matter of trust. What liar would spend so much of His life teaching all of these ideals. If history can't prove who he is, then try out the contents of His wisdom. The more I test these things, the more trust I can put into the unproveable things that He said. That is the faith part(trust part)
Obviously you would. You would make shit up as you go. Which is pretty much what you are doing now. Making shit up as you go is what liars do. And from reading this post, I have LESS trust in your "testing" of things.
(May 2, 2011 at 11:04 pm)RDK Wrote: Maybe consider what Jesus taught as being so different from the other religious entities you may have studied.
6. The wonderful concepts and ways to live that Jesus displayed are too true to come from someone who would
lie about the rest of what He taught.
Regardless of whatever Jesus taught it doesn't necessarily make his existence fact or prove that he's the son of some God. The bible could say that he taught the best things everyone ever wanted to hear, but it doesn't mean he actually existed. And I wouldn't necessarily say that people were lying about what he supposedly taught, but if they believe it, they wouldn't think that it's a lie. If they wanted to believe that they were special and had a special paradise waiting for them after death, they would spread that idea around, which frankly, isn't such a bad thing to believe in if you have a shitty life. So they spread the idea believing in it without actually knowing if it were true or not.
And don't forget that there were also a lot of things Jesus said in the bible that never came true, like when he told people that the end of the world and his second coming would occur in their lifetimes.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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