(August 20, 2016 at 10:05 pm)fdesilva Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 8:31 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Where is choice three?

"Yes I believe in a robust form of free will of the sort which can justify God torturing me for eternity if I don't do all his bidding."

Think of a GPS Navigation system. If we got a good one, we are happy to follow it because we can trust the directions given. Sure we are free to go a different route.
Now consider this. Suppose one-day a computer was invented that knew everything.  It knew you so well that you could ask it what should I do next and it will tell you. Would you not be wise to follow its advice?
God has given free will to take His advice and become like Him or go our own way.

Well maybe if i lacked direction or just had no clue at all.  Then a steady source of rules might be just the ticket.

(August 20, 2016 at 10:05 pm)fdesilva Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 8:31 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Where is choice three?

"Yes I believe in a robust form of free will of the sort which can justify God torturing me for eternity if I don't do all his bidding."

Think of a GPS Navigation system. If we got a good one, we are happy to follow it because we can trust the directions given. Sure we are free to go a different route.
Now consider this. Suppose one-day a computer was invented that knew everything.  It knew you so well that you could ask it what should I do next and it will tell you. Would you not be wise to follow its advice?
God has given free will to take His advice and become like Him or go our own way.

"If we got a good one..."

If you even have one at all...

(August 20, 2016 at 10:15 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 10:05 pm)fdesilva Wrote: Think of a GPS Navigation system. If we got a good one, we are happy to follow it because we can trust the directions given. Sure we are free to go a different route.
Now consider this. Suppose one-day a computer was invented that knew everything.  It knew you so well that you could ask it what should I do next and it will tell you. Would you not be wise to follow its advice?
God has given free will to take His advice and become like Him or go our own way.

"If we got a good one..."

If you even have one at all...

Yes we all do. You might not wish to call it God or recognise it as such. The GPS is Love as long as every choice we make, we ask our self is this the most loving thing to do?
That is it. Nothing more nothing less. We were all created equal. Not equal in beauty, intelligence, or strength but one thing alone , that is in our ability to Love.

(August 20, 2016 at 10:46 pm)fdesilva Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 10:15 pm)Jesster Wrote: "If we got a good one..."

If you even have one at all...

Yes we all do. You might not wish to call it God or recognise it as such. The GPS is Love as long as every choice we make, we ask our self is this the most loving thing to do?
That is it. Nothing more nothing less. We were all created equal. Not equal in beauty, intelligence, or strength but one thing alone , that is in our ability to Love.

Love?

https://youtu.be/TCBttS_y7lE

(August 20, 2016 at 10:52 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 10:46 pm)fdesilva Wrote: Yes we all do. You might not wish to call it God or recognise it as such. The GPS is Love as long as every choice we make, we ask our self is this the most loving thing to do?
That is it. Nothing more nothing less. We were all created equal. Not equal in beauty, intelligence, or strength but one thing alone , that is in our ability to Love.

Love?

https://youtu.be/TCBttS_y7lE

Pleasure without love is a waste of time

(August 20, 2016 at 11:17 pm)fdesilva Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 10:52 pm)Jesster Wrote: Love?

https://youtu.be/TCBttS_y7lE

Pleasure without love is a waste of time

Thank you for your baseless assertion that doesn't answer the question anyway.

(August 20, 2016 at 8:29 pm)fdesilva Wrote: Consider the following
P1. The universe is a 4Dimensional object (1D of time 3D of space)
P2. The universe is expanding.
c1 The expansion of the universe means that its 4 Dimensional shape is flexible.
c2 True Free will is possible by changing the shape of a part of the universe. In doing so you change not only the future but also the past.

If you imagine all the particles of the universe at this instance then their state will determine the next. This is the determinism. Here is what changing the shape would mean. Imagine the particles at a given instance. Now if you were to plot the motion of these particles over time they would be like strings across space and time. Like a 4-dimensional spider web.
What if you pulled on one of these strings? Pulling it would mean changing its position across time and space. In other words, Free Will is possible at a given instant but doing so will also mean you change the past as well as the future.

Lol, the universe ain't 4D even though there are other dimensions, just not in this universe. There are only 1D, 2D, and 3Ds in this universe.

1D might possibly be quarks or preons, 2D is the thickness or graphine, and 3D is well...Three D

The universe is expanding (at least we think)

If the universe was 4D you can't flex the shape just because it's expanding without energy.

You can't affect time in a 4D universe, just go through it back and forth (maybe up and down but idk)

If you "imagine" that doesn't make it true.

Yes every current state determines the next but not before. The butterfly effect.

You can't change the universe's shape.
String Theory is mostly a hypothesis and not yet proven but has some evidence to back it up.
4D beings would live through time and see what they want to do, thus what they wanted has happens or will happen.

Get rekt.

This free will thread isn't phenomenologically sexy enough.

Where's Gem when ya need her?

3d is space.
4d is movement/change of stuff through space.
5d is the development and accumulation of pattern through time. Like what DNA is doing by evolving over time into more complex and developed forms.

0d is usually imagined as a point that does not actually exist, 1d as a line that does not actually exist and 2d imagined as a plane that does not actually exist. You use these three non existent things and mix it a cauldron with eye of newt and frog farts on a blue moon and it makes real 3d space.

(August 20, 2016 at 11:20 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 11:17 pm)fdesilva Wrote: Pleasure without love is a waste of time

Thank you for your baseless assertion that doesn't answer the question anyway.

I was not answering a question, it was a comment on the lyrics of a song

---

(August 20, 2016 at 11:30 pm)ScienceAf Wrote:

(August 20, 2016 at 8:29 pm)fdesilva Wrote: Consider the following
P1. The universe is a 4Dimensional object (1D of time 3D of space)
P2. The universe is expanding.
c1 The expansion of the universe means that its 4 Dimensional shape is flexible.
c2 True Free will is possible by changing the shape of a part of the universe. In doing so you change not only the future but also the past.

If you imagine all the particles of the universe at this instance then their state will determine the next. This is the determinism. Here is what changing the shape would mean. Imagine the particles at a given instance. Now if you were to plot the motion of these particles over time they would be like strings across space and time. Like a 4-dimensional spider web.
What if you pulled on one of these strings? Pulling it would mean changing its position across time and space. In other words, Free Will is possible at a given instant but doing so will also mean you change the past as well as the future.

Lol, the universe ain't 4D even though there are other dimensions, just not in this universe. There are only 1D, 2D, and 3Ds in this universe.

1D might possibly be quarks or preons, 2D is the thickness or graphine, and 3D is well...Three D

The universe is expanding (at least we think)

If the universe was 4D you can't flex the shape just because it's expanding without energy.

You can't affect time in a 4D universe, just go through it back and forth (maybe up and down but idk)

If you "imagine" that doesn't make it true.

Yes every current state determines the next but not before. The butterfly effect.

You can't change the universe's shape.
String Theory is mostly a hypothesis and not yet proven but has some evidence to back it up.
4D beings would live through time and see what they want to do, thus what they wanted has happens or will happen.

Get rekt.

spacetime is 4D have a read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime