(May 13, 2011 at 3:09 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(May 13, 2011 at 2:59 pm)darkblight ' Wrote: i suppose i will try to phrase this better.. there is no great justice.. there is no reason to be "moral" other than fear of punishment.

Bullshit. there are plenty of reasons to be 'moral' without fear of punishment.

Being a nice person is one.

Fear of punishment is only a deterent to people who would be immoral anyway

And who gets to decide what is moral any way?

Religious countries always go overboard making stupid shit immoral like homosexuality.
Why is it immoral for same sex people to screw each other, each to their own as far as i'm concerened.

I can see why girlysprite thinks you are a poe, theists tend to think the fear of punishment is the origin of morality more than atheists because atheists tend to know better.

morality is subjective and thus does not exist in terms of reality.

i am sure hitler considered himself to be a nice person, thats the folly of saying
EVERYONE thinks they are a nice person.. it is a survival mechanism.

cognitive dissonance

everyone has their own set of "morality"-- there is no universal morality.. just what you "feel" to be "right" or "wrong" ... if morality exists then GOD exists.. for GOD is simply something people create in their minds.. and thus so is MORALITY.

clear this up I AM NOT A FUCKING THEIST.

“[O]ur moral judgments and evaluations…are only images and fantasies based on a physiological process unknown to us” Niezt

just as god is a fantasy, so is morality. like i said earlier.. there are those who are stepped on and those who doing the stepping.. make a choice.

I didnt say you were a theist i just could see how you could be misconstrued as one.
For one thing you were using an argument that many theists have put forward here before. To my knowledge you are the only atheist to take this line.

Morality changes as society changes so it is usual to think of as 'base line' morality coming from society as a whole. I say base line because peoples personal morals vary around the base line sometimes being more sometimes less than the base line.

There was a time when simply being an atheist was considered immoral and was punished as such.

(May 13, 2011 at 3:26 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: I didnt say you were a theist i just could see how you could be misconstrued as one.
For one thing you were using an argument that many theists have put forward here before. To my knowledge you are the only atheist to take this line.

Morality changes as society changes so it is usual to think of as 'base line' morality coming from society as a whole. I say base line because peoples personal morals vary around the base line sometimes being more sometimes less than the base line.

There was a time when simply being an atheist was considered immoral and was punished as such.

i guess put it like this: you have a button, you push it and everything you find wrong with the world is gone, including people.. do you push the button? who could not push the button?

so then the question becomes how do we make this button.

(May 13, 2011 at 7:08 am)Girlysprite Wrote: First of all, religion is not a good source for morals. The reason is that the morals are not clear - they are extremely muddled. You'd think that a thing like ten rules set in stone is clear. However, the killing done by 'the holy people' continues. Just to illustrate the point; Moses came down the mountain with the first set of tablets. The people had started worshipping something else in the meantime. Moses gets angry, smashes the tablets, orders the unholy statues to be grinded, mixed with water, and the water has to be drunk. After that he orders several men to strap on swords and kill people. So mere hours after getting the first tablets (and I'll assume those had the same rules) he already breaks the 'no kill' rule.
'Yeah, but there are exceptions! People cry. Then why isn't there a clear point by point list of what those exceptions are? Some bible statements even contradict each other. You can really see that when two groups condemn each other, both using quotes from the same bible...

This is just an example. Most rules are like that. This leads to many religious people picking the rules and deciding what is good and what is not. As such, the bible is extremely shaky as a source of morals.

Now, many theists seem to wonder why people would bother behaving nice if there was no eternal glory as reward at the end. Many of them predict a tidal wave of terrible behavior as atheism gains popularity. But when we look at reality, this doesn't seem to be the case. Atheists are not 'worse' then religious people are. The reason is that humans are simply evolved to be generally nice. Why do you think that helping others feels good? It is an built-in reward system from our brains. We are evolved as a group species, and group species have to stick together and be nice. We have a 'see it from someone else's view' part in our brains. It works automatically. When you see someone suffer, you feel bad about it too. When you help someone and it makes that person happy, you feel rewarded too. You see a friend cry, you become sad. This impulse is hard to overcome and is very strong.
Interestingly, there are people who have a specific brain-defect so that this system does not work. Children like this do not return any love at all, and often hurt people on purpose. They are physically incapable of caring for others. These people are sad cases, because they can't mesh in with society at all. They can't understand how people feel, and they aren't capable of being nice to other people - seeing their cases you start to realize how deep this system goes, and how automatic it is - our day is littered with offering little pleasantries to each other.

The reason I'm nice to people is that I could not stand to see them hurt and suffering. And that is a good thing, I''m glad that I, and people in general, work like that.

You make two very good points, except that, in the first case, the point is that Moses broke the 'no kill rule' i.e. it's not that there isn't a moral code, it is just that he went against it. You are quite right to claim that religious people can be just as immoral as Atheists. But here is the difference: If you believe in God, it is completely irrational to do something in this transient existence that would put you at risk of being damned for eternity. So why do Christians, as an example, do wrong? The reason is that they have some selfish end that allows them to overide their reasoning faculties. It is the same reason why a vastly overweight person continues to overeat. A short term tiny gain, e.g. eating a bar of chocolate, over a long term huge gain, i.e. a healthy weight and a longer and more fullfilled life. However, the code is still there and the rationale won't go away.

Your second point is a good one but also does not take account of the fact that people can easily, and often do, overide these evolutionary sensations to obtain some selfish end. Just look at the history of Humankind. Even as we speak, we, in this advanced western civilisation, are dropping bombs on other human beings to gain some end.

Furthermore, have we really evolved as far as you think? Recall the baying Roman crowds enjoying the sight of Christians being torn to pieces by being thrown to the lions or the crowds that gathered to watch a woman being beheaded in order to satisfy Henry the VIII's short term desires.

I am not as confident as you seem to be that about Human development and that underneath the thin facade of civilised society, there lurks much deeper beastly drives. These drives seem to surface whenever push comes to shove, such as Rwandan genocide or the Nazi slaughter of the Jews.

So my point is that all people have an inherently selfish side to there nature and that this nature can lead them to undertake all sorts of mis-demeanour and even horrific acts. This is true for religious as well as atheist people. But that, because religious people have a God, then these acts (from their perspective) are irrational and these people, deep down, know it ( maybe this is the source of so called conscience). For an atheist, given history so far, relying on the evolution of some sort of higher-man seems a long way off. It is doubtful that commiting a mis-demeanor to enhance one's own existence is irrational under the atheist scheme.

There is no atheist scheme diffidus And people rarely make a point by point analyses before they do anything, people go with their gut feeling. Whether that is better or not is sometimes hard to tell.

Quote:it's not that there isn't a moral code, it is just that he went against it.

What does it say about religious people if even one of their paragorns of their faith leaps to making such big mistakes SO quickly? Moses isn't an exception on breaking rules though. It seems that many of the forefathers, and 'the people' in general were very unlikable.

Quote:If you believe in God, it is completely irrational to do something in this transient existence that would put you at risk of being damned for eternity. So why do Christians, as an example, do wrong? The reason is that they have some selfish end that allows them to overide their reasoning faculties. It is the same reason why a vastly overweight person continues to overeat. A short term tiny gain, e.g. eating a bar of chocolate, over a long term huge gain, i.e. a healthy weight and a longer and more fullfilled life. However, the code is still there and the rationale won't go away.

I'm sorry, but it isn't that simple. Many Christians who have vastle different believes and practices truly believe that they are doing the right and just thing. They don't believe themselves to be following their inner desires. When someone has been raised in a particular hard-line denomination, that person will often follow the rules of that denomination by the letter and believe only his club is right. And because the bible is so vague, there are so many groups who each think they truly are RIGHT.

The pope may be making a lot of bad descisions, but I think he truly sees himself as the representative of god at earth. At the same time, other denominations truly see him as a satan-worshipper, and the RC church as a church of the devil. They really believe it deep down at their core, and both sides use the bible to support their notions!

And I'm only talking about present-day believers. In the past pretty much everyone supported slavery. The bible supports slavery. The bible hasn't changed, the public moral has - but is the bible still right that slavery is ok?
ps: I am certain the bible doesn't actually mean 'servants'. It's clear that it's about slaves - people you can buy, sell, and have sex with when you want. Some people say that 'at least slaves are to be treated nice according the bible', but even that isn't true. You can beat them to an inch of their life, as long as they will survive a few days before dying.


And think of, if so many people with the best of intentions get it wrong, it surely says something about the bible as the source of moral code, right?

And the Christian religion is a big major religion for about 1800-1600 years. If religion would have brought better morals through fear, we would have seen a pretty much ok trackrecord, right? Of course there would be crime - people are people - but it would have been nice in general. But it wasn't. The ages have been riddled with wars, slavery, the destruction of many cultures (in the name of religion!) and many people who have been killed for disagreeing with the church. I know, people are people, but with such a 'perfect moral guide', shouldn't have Christians at least have fared better, at least a bit?

I'm not saying that the world will become peaceful if everyone would become an atheist. Though, I must add, it would be an improvement. Some wars use religion as an excuse, but some wars and terrible misdeeds are just entirely caused by certain religions. At least we'd get rid of those.

(May 14, 2011 at 6:01 pm)Girlysprite Wrote:

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There is no atheist scheme diffidus And people rarely make a point by point analyses before they do anything, people go with their gut feeling. Whether that is better or not is sometimes hard to tell.

Quote:it's not that there isn't a moral code, it is just that he went against it.

What does it say about religious people if even one of their paragorns of their faith leaps to making such big mistakes SO quickly? Moses isn't an exception on breaking rules though. It seems that many of the forefathers, and 'the people' in general were very unlikable.

Quote:If you believe in God, it is completely irrational to do something in this transient existence that would put you at risk of being damned for eternity. So why do Christians, as an example, do wrong? The reason is that they have some selfish end that allows them to overide their reasoning faculties. It is the same reason why a vastly overweight person continues to overeat. A short term tiny gain, e.g. eating a bar of chocolate, over a long term huge gain, i.e. a healthy weight and a longer and more fullfilled life. However, the code is still there and the rationale won't go away.

I'm sorry, but it isn't that simple. Many Christians who have vastle different believes and practices truly believe that they are doing the right and just thing. They don't believe themselves to be following their inner desires. When someone has been raised in a particular hard-line denomination, that person will often follow the rules of that denomination by the letter and believe only his club is right. And because the bible is so vague, there are so many groups who each think they truly are RIGHT.

The pope may be making a lot of bad descisions, but I think he truly sees himself as the representative of god at earth. At the same time, other denominations truly see him as a satan-worshipper, and the RC church as a church of the devil. They really believe it deep down at their core, and both sides use the bible to support their notions!

And I'm only talking about present-day believers. In the past pretty much everyone supported slavery. The bible supports slavery. The bible hasn't changed, the public moral has - but is the bible still right that slavery is ok?
ps: I am certain the bible doesn't actually mean 'servants'. It's clear that it's about slaves - people you can buy, sell, and have sex with when you want. Some people say that 'at least slaves are to be treated nice according the bible', but even that isn't true. You can beat them to an inch of their life, as long as they will survive a few days before dying.


And think of, if so many people with the best of intentions get it wrong, it surely says something about the bible as the source of moral code, right?

And the Christian religion is a big major religion for about 1800-1600 years. If religion would have brought better morals through fear, we would have seen a pretty much ok trackrecord, right? Of course there would be crime - people are people - but it would have been nice in general. But it wasn't. The ages have been riddled with wars, slavery, the destruction of many cultures (in the name of religion!) and many people who have been killed for disagreeing with the church. I know, people are people, but with such a 'perfect moral guide', shouldn't have Christians at least have fared better, at least a bit?

I'm not saying that the world will become peaceful if everyone would become an atheist. Though, I must add, it would be an improvement. Some wars use religion as an excuse, but some wars and terrible misdeeds are just entirely caused by certain religions. At least we'd get rid of those.

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(I used the term scheme in a figurative sense - to mean the Athiest way of viewing the world through the lens of the non existence of God as opposed to religious people)

I was taking a high level view. It is certainly is the case (in Christian religion) that if you do bad you go to hell and if you do good you go to heaven. It may be simplistic but it is a fact for those who believe. The problem with people is that they often want to use a religeon for their own ends. Ever since Christianity was politicised by the Roman Emperor Constantine, it has been used as a badge by leaders to justify all kinds of obscenity (and still does today).

I think you are right that some religious people really believe that they are doing the right thing when most of us would think they are in the wrong.

However, this fact is the same for Atheists.

The difference is that, for a Christian, independent of their belief, if they get it wrong, they are damned to Hell for eternity. I should think this should be a good motivation to consider very carefully any actions that you undertake. This motive does not exist to the same degree for an Athiest.

You worry too much diffidus... go out and get yourself laid and enjoy what life you have...make it better if you can and accept what you can't change,,, that doesn't mean you have to live the way you have been told to.

Diffidus, in theory you may be right. However, when I look at reality, I see it doesn't matter anything at all.

(May 15, 2011 at 4:45 am)diffidus Wrote: The difference is that, for a Christian, independent of their belief, if they get it wrong, they are damned to Hell for eternity. I should think this should be a good motivation to consider very carefully any actions that you undertake. This motive does not exist to the same degree for an Athiest.

Except it hasn't been good motivation.. The evil of the religious man rivals the evil of the nonbeliever.. irrespective of the specific religious title...

And the extra motivation the atheist has to do right by himself and his fellow man stems from knowledge of the consequences of destabilization and how that affects the peace of his world.. as well as knowledge of the natural consequences of self destruction...

Like the religious mind such motivations may or may not be a factor...

We will behave how we decide to behave.. The question really should be on what standard of behavior do we unite? And is attributing the source to an invisible power necessary to do so.. ? In the end it is all our decision..

I would also like to add that while hell and heaven might be motivators for some religious people, the mind-warping effect of the horribly vague 'moral guide' that the bible seems to be erases any positive effect it could ever have. Just think of the horrible things done in the name of religion.

You may know the old saying...'good people do good things, evil people to evil things, but for good people to do evil things it takes religion.'