This is my proof for God existing.

1. Formulate the information of the concept of God, thus:
"God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning."

2. Look for instances of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

3. We find countless examples of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

4. From the countless instances of causation in reality, we infer to the existence of a first and ultimate cause.

5. We find that the first and ultimate cause of all instances of causation in reality corresponds to our information on the concept of God, namely, the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

6. Conclusion: God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.


What do you think about my proof for the existence of God?

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: This is my proof for God existing.

1. Formulate the information of the concept of God, thus:
"God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning."

2. Look for instances of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

3. We find countless examples of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

4. From the countless instances of causation in reality, we infer to the existence of a first and ultimate cause.

5. We find that the first and ultimate cause of all instances of causation in reality corresponds to our information on the concept of God, namely, the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

6. Conclusion: God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.


What do you think about my proof for the existence of God?

This is not "proof" or evidence. It is simply a claim. Claims demand evidence.

Also , multiple gods exist in concept. Conclusion: Gods exist and created the universe. Hundreds of gods.

Why don't you introduce yourself?

http://atheistforums.org/forum-11.html

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: [...]
What do you think about my proof for the existence of God?

It's nonsense. First of all - if you decided, that everything has a cause, because you see a lot of causality around you - then who/what caused god? And if god can exist without a cause, then so can anything else, meaning there would be no need for god/first cause.

Secondly, even if your reasoning were sound - it's not very satisfying, compared to the multitude of claims related to your imaginary friend. There is nothing in your "proof", that your "first cause" "operates" anything. If you want to call the first link in the cause/effect chain in the universe "a god", then so be it, but that god would be pretty useless to you as a theist, longing for a sky-daddy. In fact it could very well no longer exist. It may have started, or "created" the reaction (like the Big Bang), which produced all the subsequent ones and led to the development of our universe, but its job is done. You provide no evidence, that your god is present anywhere in the universe and if you look around you'll see countless examples of causes that seized to exist at some point after starting an effect, so by your "logic" - god is most likely dead.

So you have no reason to believe in the afterlife, or that god knows/cares about you, or anything else for that matter. No reason to believe, that god is anything like you. No reason to believe, that any god revealed itself to any human,  that there's any way to know god, or it's will, if it has such a faculty. No reason to believe, that any holy books are anything more than ramblings of madmen. No reason to believe, that your god interferes with the reality at all. 

You're not a theist - you're a deist at best. Your god is no better, than no god at all.

Sorry, I did not introduce myself.

But here is my present description:


Mariosep
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#1
 
I am a theist, what do you think of my proof for God existing?
21 minutes ago

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First, I identify the kind of God I am proving to exist, by presenting my information on God, namely, that first and foremost He is the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

On that consideration, God is the cause of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

So, we go forth into the realm of reality of existence to search for all instances of causation, and infer therefrom that all instances of causation are evidence for the existence of an entity corresponding to the concept of God, namely, first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

So, we have evidence for God existing in the reality of existence, corresponding to the concept of God, namely: first and foremost the creator (cause) and operator (cause) of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

Your entire argument relies on the equivocation of the word 'cause'. The example I use is to ask what causes a hammer to exist? when a handle and head are put together? Or when a tree is cut down and carved to create a handle and the Earth is mined for ore to melt down and make the head? Or when a seed is planted and the atoms that make the metal are created in the nucleus of a sun?

There is no cause. There are just atoms being rearranged into different states due to the flow of energy. Causation is a concept that we humans use to describe something in simple terms. You're using this concept out of scope.

And why is it that theists always talk in terms of 'proofs' ?

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: This is my proof for God existing.

1. Formulate the information of the concept of God, thus:
"God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning."

2. Look for instances of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

3. We find countless examples of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

4. From the countless instances of causation in reality, we infer to the existence of a first and ultimate cause.

5. We find that the first and ultimate cause of all instances of causation in reality corresponds to our information on the concept of God, namely, the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

6. Conclusion: God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.


What do you think about my proof for the existence of God?

God of the gaps isn't a valid proof for god. Thousands of years ago people thought thunder & lightning were proof of god(s), today we know better. Far more likely that the currently unexplained things you think are proof of god will have natural explanations.

And your secondary argument, what caused god?

Hello welcome Here is my quick critique:

Observing what happens inside reality tells us nothing about how reality itself works. It's the fallacy of composition.

Assuming everything needs a cause leads to infinite regress.

This doesn't even produce an intelligent cause, much less a god, whatever that is supposed to be.

Logical statements, without a falsifiable testable hypothesis, don't demonstrate anything about reality. They just transfer the truth of the premises to the truth of the conclusion.

It is still nowhere near the actual Christian God you worship. Why should I care if it, or any God, exists?

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: This is my proof for God existing.

1. Formulate the information of the concept of God, thus:
"God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning."

2. Look for instances of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

3. We find countless examples of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

4. From the countless instances of causation in reality, we infer to the existence of a first and ultimate cause.

5. We find that the first and ultimate cause of all instances of causation in reality corresponds to our information on the concept of God, namely, the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

6. Conclusion: God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.


What do you think about my proof for the existence of God?

1. Meaningless idea. The universe is all there is by definition, it cannot have a creator or operator, as those things imply external and independent agency. 

2. Good luck with that. No such thing exists. Nothing known to us can be "outside of our minds". That is an inescapable fact about knowledge - it cannot escape its solipsistic dimension.

3. Facepalm.

4. How the fuck do you do that?

5. Who is we? Crazy people?

6. Dude. Just please. Tell me. I can't. How did you... What is... What?!

7. I think first of all it's not even a proof in any sense of the word and none of what you said makes any sense.

Hello Mario!
We're going to have some fun with words! Ready?

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: This is my proof for God existing.

To call some words "proof" is a bit rash, don't you think?

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: 1. Formulate the information of the concept of God, thus:
"God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning."

I don't get why you didn't stop at "universe", but alright... let's go along with that...

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: 2. Look for instances of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

Not a solipsist, I see....
I think you need to define causation, here.
What is an "instance of causation"? The moment when something causes something else? When something with energy imparts some of that energy on something else?
But where does all the previously existing energy come from? What caused the energy to exist?
Remember Lavoisier? "Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed."
Nothing that we see is a creation of energy... only transforming one form of energy into another.... and energy is like mass, you know E=mc^2, right?

So.... "causation"... what does it mean?

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: 3. We find countless examples of causation in reality outside of concepts in our mind.

Do we?... maybe...
If by causation you mean energy transfer, yes.
If by causation you mean energy generation, no.

Now that those two things have been properly distinguished, let's continue.

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: 4. From the countless instances of causation in reality, we infer to the existence of a first and ultimate cause.

We do?
No we don't. Why would we do such a rash, potentially dishonest, thing?

Can your little head not wrap itself around the concept of infinity? Infinite time backwards... it's not impossible, but it's difficult to grasp, I'll grant you that.
Or the concept of timelessness, a state of affairs in which time is non-existent... actions do not exist, causation is meaningless. Personally, I don't like this possibility... but it can't be ruled out.

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: 5. We find that the first and ultimate cause of all instances of causation in reality corresponds to our information on the concept of God, namely, the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

- Get ready to load up the concept of God with iron-age tales!!

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: 6. Conclusion: God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

Wasn't that number 5? Repetition serves no purpose, here...

(October 24, 2016 at 5:27 am)Mariosep Wrote: What do you think about my proof for the existence of God?

Well, I think it's lacking on substance... an actual god, you know?
Also, it could do with a bit more of an open mind - there are countless possibilities for how the Universe came about and most don't posit the existence of a special conscious entity to do it.

And finally, words matter. Words with multiple meanings are dangerous in the wrong hands.
Words like: causation, truth, belief and theory can be twisted along an argument to mean something different from what they mean at the start of the argument... take care with those.
Keep your eyes open for those word traps.