(November 21, 2016 at 1:50 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:

(November 21, 2016 at 10:40 am)Drich Wrote: The devil is not the God of the underworld. He does not get points for steering people away from God. Satan is not a God at all, like the rest of Creation he is a servant/Has a role to perform.

I guess you have not seen the show Lucifer.

That show breaks my heart.. or rather those who follow it/like it do.

I could make a guess what it is about based on what Satan has done in the past to gain the acceptance of the general population.

(November 21, 2016 at 5:04 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 19, 2016 at 4:36 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Is this inconsistency down to:

bad writing?

Got it in one.  You have a character who knows God personally and directly.  He is so unimpressed by God that he decides to throw a monkey wrench in his plans.  We can assume that he knows that the end result of his rebellion against God is that he will be wiped from existence, so he is a fatalist.  Or... he doesn't know that God will kill him?  Or... he thinks that he can stand up to God and overcome him?

He certainly can't expect to reason things out with God if he'd read the Bible beforeha-- ohhhhhh...

_Or He is just 'following orders.'

(November 22, 2016 at 4:24 am)robvalue Wrote: That's it. God wrote this propaganda and still Satan comes out looking like the better being.

It's more reasonable to assume that the roles are reversed. Satan is the main character. He writes how evil he is for all to see, yet people defend him to the hilt. He is moral because morality comes from him.

You are right, but not in the way you are patting yourself on your back for.

(November 22, 2016 at 5:39 pm)Opoponax Wrote:

(November 21, 2016 at 5:04 pm)Tonus Wrote: Got it in one.  You have a character who knows God personally and directly.  He is so unimpressed by God that he decides to throw a monkey wrench in his plans.  We can assume that he knows that the end result of his rebellion against God is that he will be wiped from existence, so he is a fatalist.  Or... he doesn't know that God will kill him?  Or... he thinks that he can stand up to God and overcome him?

He certainly can't expect to reason things out with God if he'd read the Bible beforeha-- ohhhhhh...

Or, God is such an asshole that he'd rather be consigned to oblivion than spend another minute with Him. That is, Satan, knowing he'd fail and what the consequences would be, would still rather lose everything than have to spend eternity with Yahweh.

you are right... Not all want to serve for eternity. I use this arguement all the time. Satan Literally chose Hell than to serve God. So then why would some of us be any different?

(November 22, 2016 at 6:01 pm)Iroscato Wrote:

(November 21, 2016 at 2:14 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: And yet god of the underworld is exactly how he is portrayed isn't it! he is supposed to try and tempt people to the dark side even tryng it on god jr himself.

Man, if I didn't know better I'd say it almost looks like Christianity was cobbled together from multiple pagan religions, through centuries of assimilating cultures and creating hybridised belief systems in order to pacify the populace and ease the transition of acceptance, and that the modern Christianity we see today contains countless echoes of its true pagan origins.

BUT THAT WOULD BE CRAZY TALK.

It wouldn't be if you did not know the difference between canonical scripture and church 'tradition.'

(November 23, 2016 at 11:42 am)Drich Wrote: _Or He is just 'following orders.'

Which orders? To tempt Eve?

(November 22, 2016 at 6:33 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 22, 2016 at 6:01 pm)Iroscato Wrote: Man, if I didn't know better I'd say it almost looks like Christianity was cobbled together from multiple pagan religions, through centuries of assimilating cultures and creating hybridised belief systems in order to pacify the populace and ease the transition of acceptance, and that the modern Christianity we see today contains countless echoes of its true pagan origins.

Yeah, but Drich is correct.  The concept of hell is poorly conceived in the Bible and can be interpreted in a number of ways, but there is no place in the OT or NT where the devil is assigned a position of any sort.  Revelation 20:7-10 tells a different story:

Quote:"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

If I'm not mistaken, it is either Dante's Inferno or Milton's Paradise Lost where the concept of hell as a place 'managed' by Satan and demons originated.

the passage you highlighted is also where people or rather church tradition reference the bible in stating we will burn forever in Hell, when in fact the only beings resigned to burn forever are those mentioned (the unholy trinity) will burn forever.

Christ in his time here says we/people or rather our souls will be destroyed in Hell.

I found this out first hand in dealing with 'hell fire.' Whatever you are/whatever makes up a soul is 'consumed/eaten' by this non-fire but fire like panic one would endure when they were being eaten away by fire.. The panic, the pain and the sheer fear, stress and Panic for lack of a better term destroys that thin thread that is our conscientiousness... In essence what makes you, you. your inner dialog part that turns into a wild animal trying to get away from the pain/hell fire. to the point where that too is consumed...

I think our time in Hell is directly proportionate to who we were and how bad we lived, but it is not forever. I was shown the gates, did go into Hell, but just the gates and felt myself slipping away from sanity.. I can't imagine it getting worse, but I knew that it did, then add forever on top of all of that... That was the point I accepted my fate and let go, only to be pulled back... I can imagine what waited for me/us on the other side, but I knew it was not satan or his demons as they too were being consumed. I could hear the screams and found out first hand what gnashing of teeth were and why that is such a bad thing.. That said I also hear the screams of other beings as well.

Before i started my study before I knew of a hell besides the Dante' version I experienced all of this, and 20+ years later can support everything I experienced with what the bible actually says about hell. I got to live out what the bible said long before I ever knew any of it to ever be true.

(November 23, 2016 at 2:55 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, pretty sure most of the devil's mythology is fan fic. (Of fan fic.) But religions are primarily oral myths. Whatever people believe, that's the deal. Whether or not it's supported by anything else is of secondary importance, to them at least.

I don't get how he can be so good at deception, yet people see him everywhere and see through his ploys immediately.

did you Read this thread? It seems to me you all think satan is the good guy here... None of you seem to be able to see your way through that deception

(November 23, 2016 at 11:58 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 23, 2016 at 11:42 am)Drich Wrote: _Or He is just 'following orders.'

Which orders?  To tempt Eve?

Look at the first few pages of Job, then look at how Christ deals with satan during his period of temptation, or even that fact that he got to tempt Christ. then look at how satan is managed and place in prison or is ultimately dealt with in Revelation...

Satan only does what he is allowed to do.

If he temped Eve it is because God wanted eve to face temptation.

(November 23, 2016 at 12:07 pm)Drich Wrote: Satan only does what he is allowed to do.

If he temped Eve it is because God wanted eve to face temptation.

I just want to be clear, because "allowed to" is not the same as "ordered to." Is Satan created specifically to test people and try to lead them from God, or does he develop into that role and allowed to carry it out because it serves God's will? If it's the former, that has to be the worst "good news/bad news" moment of all time. But it would square with Jesus' description of him in John 8:44.