(February 11, 2017 at 10:15 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 11, 2017 at 9:48 am)Huggy74 Wrote: So what does your improper use of the word 'believe' prove?

That I believe in things which seem to represent reality, and do not reserve the term for fairy tales?

http://faculty.valenciacollege.edu/droge...fact3.html

Quote:Belief vs. Fact

Often, people confuse belief with fact. Both involve some concept of the Truth, but belief does not really hint at whether something has been proven or not (or whether it even is provable). This is because "belief" is often related to another concept.

Faith: Unquestioning belief, trust, or confidence that does not require proof or evidence.

Having faith in something means no proof is required. This is often the case when it comes to religious views. In fact, the nature of religion is based on the fact that no proofs are required. This is because religion covers ideas and topics that are beyond the ability of human perceptions or understanding.
And though many people may say, "I take my religion as fact," that is not quite accurate.
Though archaeological facts may prove certain aspects of a religion, the larger questions about human existence after death, intended miracles, and intelligent design of the universe are beyond the sorts of investigative studies we normally associate with "proving" something. Religious concepts beyond the physical can only be taken on faith. And faith is only a weakness to someone who sees the physical world as more important (or more "real").

(February 10, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: You guys claim that the default position is "I don't know", except it really isn't...

Watched the first ten minutes and will watch the rest soon. (Early morning walk with the pups is happening.) Interesting.

For those put off by the recent spate of threads obsessed with NDE (near death experiences), end of life (EOL) experiences doesn't deal with weird beyond the grave stuff - just what lots of people experience as they near death. Interesting. Of course those whose world view revolves around the divine or a life after, they would tend to interpret these experiences as boding promise of a reunion with passed loved ones. Logical, given their world view. But I didn't listen to in that light of course and I found plenty of interest without any supernatural mumbo jumbo.

We all die, part of the deal. We are so good at anticipating what's coming consciously that our mortality is hard to ignore. To my mind, the dreams Mary and others describe in the video are indicative of the way the cosmos feels to the part of you which is truly timeless and perceives your impending mortality -if at all- very differently. I'm sure that sort of dream is comforting and as our decaying brains lose power perhaps it becomes less clear which perspective is more compelling?

But acquiescing to the inevitable is probably preferable to panic. I don't think I'd wish to become delusional but if we cultivate the capacity to appreciate the unconscious mind on its own terms in life without becoming confused about where its perspective rules and where that of our conscious minds is more important, we can continue to enjoy the best of each on up to the end. That would be my preference.

Oh dear, Huggy's digging through his vault of Quotes from Years Past ® again?

Okay, which one of youse got him riled up this time?

It doesn't take much, lol.  

(February 11, 2017 at 9:48 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Here's the thing, death in the bible is defined as 'separation', not the "end of a process", which is why Jesus on occasion refereed to the dead, as "asleep", if Jesus referred to someone as "dead" it meant they were separated from God (in Hell).

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

Quote:That being said, I've made no claims on life after death personally, I choose to believe what the Bible says about it, and what the Bible states is that when we (the believer) leave our current body, there is another body waiting for us.

You believe it, I don't.

Quote:For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. - 2 Corinthians 5:1

This is a promise to everyone who is willing to believe.

I've chosen to accept it as truth, and my only obligation is to inform others who are willing to accept it also, not to convince the doubters.

Fair enough. I see it as a silly belief, but each to their own I suppose.

Quote:But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. - 1 Corinthians 14:38

---

Well quite. And I expect you to cling to it.

(February 11, 2017 at 12:43 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 11, 2017 at 9:48 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Here's the thing, death in the bible is defined as 'separation', not the "end of a process", which is why Jesus on occasion refereed to the dead, as "asleep", if Jesus referred to someone as "dead" it meant they were separated from God (in Hell).

I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

What it means is that the word death in the bible is translated from the Greek word Thanatos which means separation.

http://biblehub.com/greek/2288.htm

Quote:2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.

Therefore for the believer there is no death because he is not separated for God, it's just simply transitioning from one place to another.

Now if you want to define death in the more traditional sense, fair enough, but that has nothing to do with what happens to consciousness afterward.

(February 11, 2017 at 9:48 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Here's the thing, death in the bible is defined as 'separation', not the "end of a process", which is why Jesus on occasion refereed to the dead, as "asleep", if Jesus referred to someone as "dead" it meant they were separated from God (in Hell).

Then either your bible and your jesus are factually wrong, or they are talking about something other than death. That makes what they say irrelevant to the discussion, in either event.

(February 11, 2017 at 10:43 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(February 10, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: You guys claim that the default position is "I don't know", except it really isn't...

Watched the first ten minutes and will watch the rest soon.  (Early morning walk with the pups is happening.)  Interesting.

For those put off by the recent spate of threads obsessed with NDE (near death experiences), end of life (EOL) experiences doesn't deal with weird beyond the grave stuff - just what lots of people experience as they near death.  Interesting.  Of course those whose world view revolves around the divine or a life after, they would tend to interpret these experiences as boding promise of a reunion with passed loved ones.  Logical, given their world view.  But I didn't listen to in that light of course and I found plenty of interest without any supernatural mumbo jumbo.

We all die, part of the deal.  We are so good at anticipating what's coming consciously that our mortality is hard to ignore.  To my mind, the dreams Mary and others describe in the video are indicative of the way the cosmos feels to the part of you which is truly timeless and perceives your impending mortality -if at all- very differently.  I'm sure that sort of dream is comforting and as our decaying brains lose power perhaps it becomes less clear which perspective is more compelling?  

But acquiescing to the inevitable is probably preferable to panic.  I don't think I'd wish to become delusional but if we cultivate the capacity to appreciate the unconscious mind on its own terms in life without becoming confused about where its perspective rules and where that of our conscious minds is more important, we can continue to enjoy the best of each on up to the end.  That would be my preference.

The problem with NDEs is that scientists have looked for such things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia...E.29_study

And, they have not found anything conclusive.  When (and if) someone has a NDE and is able to verify an object's existence remotely (say, from the ceiling), then such will be proof that human consciousness survives the death of one's physical brain.

The sad part, for life after deathers anyway..is that even if we did find that, it still wouldn't speak to any life after death.  Just the persistence of some ghost.....you're still dead, after all..or you wouldn't be a ghost.

(February 11, 2017 at 1:12 pm)Jehanne Wrote: And, they have not found anything conclusive.  When (and if) someone has a NDE and is able to verify an object's existence remotely (say, from the ceiling), then such will be proof that human consciousness survives the death of one's physical brain.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...=104397005

Quote:When the operation began, the surgeons taped shut Reynolds' eyes and put molded speakers in her ears. The ear speakers, which made clicking sounds as loud as a jet plane taking off, allowed the surgeons to measure her brain stem activity and let them know when they could drain her blood.

"I was lying there on the gurney minding my own business, seriously unconscious, when I started to hear a noise," Reynolds recalls. "It was a natural D, and as the sound continued — I don't know how to explain this, other than to go ahead and say it — I popped up out the top of my head."

She says she found herself looking down at the operating table. She says she could see 20 people around the table and hear what sounded like a dentist's drill. She looked at the instrument in the surgeon's hand.

"It was an odd-looking thing," she says. "It looked like the handle on my electric toothbrush."

Reynolds observed the Midas Rex bone saw the surgeons used to cut open her head, the drill bits, and the case, which looked like the one where her father kept his socket wrenches. Then she noticed a surgeon at her left groin.

"I heard a female voice say, 'Her arteries are too small.' And Dr. Spetzler — I think it was him — said, 'Use the other side,' " Reynolds says.

Quote:Afterwards, Reynolds assumed she had been hallucinating. But a year later, she mentioned the details to her neurosurgeon. Spetzler says her account matched his memory.

"From a scientific perspective," he says, "I have absolutely no explanation about how it could have happened."

Spetzler did not check out all the details, but Michael Sabom did. Sabom is a cardiologist in Atlanta who was researching near-death experiences.

"With Pam's permission, they sent me her records from the surgery," he says. "And long story short, what she said happened to her is actually what Spetzler did with her out in Arizona."

According to the records, there were 20 doctors in the room. There was a conversation about the veins in her left leg. She was defibrillated. They were playing "Hotel California." How about that bone saw? Sabom got a photo from the manufacturer — and it does look like an electric toothbrush.

How, Sabom wonders, could she know these things?

"She could not have heard [it], because of what they did to her ears," he says. "In addition, both of her eyes were taped shut, so she couldn't open her eyes and see what was going on. So her physical sensory perception was off the table."