(May 10, 2017 at 4:39 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But Chad, if a person genuinely just doesn't think God is real, how can that be held against them to such a degree that warrants going straight to Hell after they die? Don't you think God gives these people a chance? 

First, let me say that I think the scriptures are indeterminate between eternal conscious torment and annihilation. Second, let me say that I personally do not like either option. I would much prefer universalism but that is not what the scriptures teach. There isn't anyone alive that does not have some apprehension of the divine that they could either cultivate or reject.

• "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" - Romans 1:18-21:
  

Likewise, the notion of a righteous atheist is a red herring. Scripture is very clear about who deserves salvation: no one.

• "Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you." -Psalm 143:2
  
  "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:8,10
  
  "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way" -Isaiah 53:6
  

Similarly, scripture is clear that we do not attain salvation by our own efforts:

• "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" -Titus 3:5).
  
  “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." -John 6:44
  

As you know, I do not often resort to proof-texting however since you are a Christian and presumably accept the authority of God's Word, I felt it would be profitable to do so.

Do you think it is possible that this could happen after the person's death though? So that the person who otherwise doesn't realize that God exists has the chance to fully accept or reject Him after seeing that He is indeed real?

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(May 10, 2017 at 4:49 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But yeah, I think the point is to be fully aware of the truth, and make the decision to turn away from it anyway.

God aside... I don't think it's possible to genuinely know goodness and choose against it.

So if God were genuinely good I don't think he could be chosen against whilst truly being known.

It would be nice if this were the case. But I do think there are some truly bad people out there. 

I think the biggest reason why someone would choose to turn away from God/goodness is pride. They want to have it their own way, and don't want to humble themselves to anyone/anything. They don't want to accept that some of the things they did were bad, and they don't want to feel remorse for them.  

Again, this is my personal opinion.

Nah. Because Neo doesn't like atheists. God doesn't forgive dead atheists!

Even though Neo used to be one himself and he in theory could have died before he became a Christian.

...of course in practice God already predetermined him to stay alive and become one

That's just it... if God truly does exist and is all knowing then he predetermines people to either fail or succeed at coming to believe in him.

Not to mention the fact that even if free will were possible... honest belief is still not a voluntary action.

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(May 10, 2017 at 5:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It would be nice if this were the case. But I do think there are some truly bad people out there. 

I think the biggest reason why someone would choose to turn away from God/goodness is pride. They want to have it their own way, and don't want to humble themselves to anyone/anything. They don't want to accept that some of the things they did were bad, and they don't want to feel remorse for them.  

Again, this is my personal opinion.

But pride is not a choice. Not wanting to feel remorse is not a choice. Being a psychopath is not a choice. Having no empathy is not a choice. Being ashamed is not a choice. Not wanting to accept something is not a choice. These are all brain states.

The idea that my eternal worth hinges upon whether I accept or reject the existence of God is one of the more immoral doctrines thought up by any religion.

(May 10, 2017 at 5:55 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Nah. Because Neo doesn't like atheists. God doesn't forgive dead atheists!

Even though Neo used to be one himself and he in theory could have died before he became a Christian.

...of course in practice God already predetermined him to stay alive and become one

That's just it... if God truly does exist and is all knowing then he predetermines people to either fail or succeed at coming to believe in him.

Not to mention the fact that even if free will were possible... honest belief is still not a voluntary action.

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(May 10, 2017 at 5:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It would be nice if this were the case. But I do think there are some truly bad people out there. 

I think the biggest reason why someone would choose to turn away from God/goodness is pride. They want to have it their own way, and don't want to humble themselves to anyone/anything. They don't want to accept that some of the things they did were bad, and they don't want to feel remorse for them.  

Again, this is my personal opinion.

But pride is not a choice. Not wanting to feel remorse is not a choice. Being a psychopath is not a choice. Having no empathy is not a choice. Being ashamed is not a choice. Not wanting to accept something is not a choice. These are all brain states.

I would disagree.

When my husband and I have a disagreement and things get heated and turn into a fight, my initial response is to shut myself away and give him the silent treatment until he makes the initiative to come to me first and apologize and see things my way. I have a strong personality and it's in my personality to react that way with those closest to me. I have to work at swollowing my pride, at trying to see things from his perspective, and of having the humility to apologize... or even to "let him win" sometimes.

It may be harder for some people than others. We all have our flaws and our struggles to overcome. But we do have the ability to choose how we act.

Psyocopathy is a mental illness, but the person can still choose to not go around treating people horribly, even if they don't feel empathy for them. It may be harder for them, but that's still no excuse. Because we all have our struggles.

(May 10, 2017 at 7:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Psyocopathy is a mental illness, but the person can still choose to not go around treating people horribly, even if they don't feel empathy for them. It may be harder for them, but that's still no excuse. Because we all have our struggles.

You clearly have no understanding of psychology and psychiatry, much less sociology.

(May 10, 2017 at 7:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: The idea that my eternal worth hinges upon whether I accept or reject the existence of God is one of the more immoral doctrines thought up by any religion.

How the religion of choice defines God is where the key is.
If God is a humanoid, then your sentence makes sense.

But if God is "something else" that taught us the noble traits we hold like mercy and logic, then the sentence doesn't make any sense.
Many religions sought to picture God as a humanoid with super powers. 

Everything human about us, is learnt and derived from him. He taught us, a step by step. An eternal worth is more of a matter of a group believing that fact and thus prospered, and another group that chose another path and another source and thus perished.
Illusion vs Truth.

(May 10, 2017 at 7:24 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:  

Everything human about us, is learnt and derived from him.

False.

We are inherently human, and evolution taught us how to become more human.

Humans create ideas for that which they cannot comprehend; i.e., there is a god angry in the sky when it thunders.

Evolution also enhances our capabilities toward reason, explaining away the god in the sky for natural causes.

Those who do not evolve remain ignorant and religious.

So I guess that means I am an unevolved human lol.

(May 10, 2017 at 7:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I have to work at swollowing my pride, at trying to see things from his perspective, and of having the humility to apologize... or even to "let him win" sometimes.

It may be harder for some people than others. We all have our flaws and our struggles to overcome. But we do have the ability to choose how we act.

But putting effort into something doesn't make that effort a choice. Remember the effort itself is predetermined.

Remember if God knows what will happen then whether that's you putting the effort in or not putting the effort in... you have no choice.

(May 10, 2017 at 7:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 5:55 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Nah. Because Neo doesn't like atheists. God doesn't forgive dead atheists!

Even though Neo used to be one himself and he in theory could have died before he became a Christian.

...of course in practice God already predetermined him to stay alive and become one

That's just it... if God truly does exist and is all knowing then he predetermines people to either fail or succeed at coming to believe in him.

Not to mention the fact that even if free will were possible... honest belief is still not a voluntary action.

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But pride is not a choice. Not wanting to feel remorse is not a choice. Being a psychopath is not a choice. Having no empathy is not a choice. Being ashamed is not a choice. Not wanting to accept something is not a choice. These are all brain states.

I would disagree.

When my husband and I have a disagreement and things get heated and turn into a fight, my initial response is to shut myself away and give him the silent treatment until he makes the initiative to come to me first and apologize and see things my way. I have a strong personality and it's in my personality to react that way with those closest to me. I have to work at swollowing my pride, at trying to see things from his perspective, and of having the humility to apologize... or even to "let him win" sometimes.

It may be harder for some people than others. We all have our flaws and our struggles to overcome. But we do have the ability to choose how we act.

Psyocopathy is a mental illness, but the person can still choose to not go around treating people horribly, even if they don't feel empathy for them. It may be harder for them, but that's still no excuse. Because we all have our struggles.

So, what you're REALLY saying is that you want me to "disappear" your husband?