I ran across this on TTA and Carroll makes some good points about what we should expect under theism and what we should expect under naturalism.

Any theists care to comment?

Nice: "The only point of view under which fine tuning might be relevant is naturalism." So long as how things are remains the plaything of a being whose methodology is indistinguishable from magic, why should any parameters require fine tuning? FTW.

A certain type of theism dominates Caroll's counterarguments; I managed to form these responses.

Life's significance plays a minor role in relation to the universe, if we looked at things from a personal perspective. But enlarging the field of vision would ensure that other variables -uncountable; to be honest- should play a severe role. 
For example; the orbits of every planet, the amount of sunlight the earth gets; the density of the earth's atmosphere, the amount of waters on the earth's surface; all of this pours in the making of a tiny creature called mankind.


.God is obvious; we see his work every moment we look around. But our minds are limited. We can conclude a creator, some of us did at least, but to demand seeing God is Ithe ultimate insult to the reality of our own mind. Our eyes alone cannot handle looking at the sun; so no shame at all in admitting that our eyes cannot see the creator. 

.If the universe is not finely tuned to support life, life won't exist. God does what he wants; including the creating of humans inside a ball full of water next to a burning star.

.We can't change the conditions which we are made in. We can produce imaginary images in our brains; but we can never change any variable. The universe came with these variables; for example existence meets non-existence. Everything we create, think or make, is a subject to this domain we are born into.

God is not obvious.
He's nowhere to be fucking seen! Ever!

And no, the universe is not finely tuned to support life at all.
It is life which evolved to be finely tuned to its surroundings... You got it the other way round ...common mistake by most theists.

If the Universe is finely tuned to produce anything, it's black holes.

(May 20, 2017 at 9:03 am)ignoramus Wrote: God is not obvious.
He's nowhere to be fucking seen! Ever!

And no, the universe is not finely tuned to support life at all.
It is life which evolved to be finely tuned to its surroundings... You got it the other way round ...common mistake by most theists.

Life cannot evolve in a universe that can't understand what life is.
As an example; human life needs an environment. Without suitable environment human life would not exist.

Evolution itself is a process that gained authorization from the universe at hand. If the universe shut down the evolutionary route; life would cease to exist.

Cyberman

Quote: Cyberman wrote:

If the Universe is finely tuned to produce anything, it's black holes.

I think black hole are more of an alternative to how life could've been.
If the universe was tuned differently, my mind can paint a quite grim alternative.

(May 20, 2017 at 9:11 am)Cyberman Wrote: If the Universe is finely tuned to produce anything, it's black holes.

No, not even that. All black holes are transient in an open universe. Universe is finely tuned to produce homogenouly nothing at the end, but to get to that simplest of end state in the most laborious and convoluted manner conceivable, involving countless unimaginably elaborate intermediate states and products that serves absolutely no ultimate purposes.

@Atlas

So if the Universe was different, it would be different. Mind blown.

And learn to quote properly.

(May 20, 2017 at 8:55 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: .God is obvious; we see his work every moment we look around. But our minds are limited. We can conclude a creator, some of us did at least, but to demand seeing God is Ithe ultimate insult to the reality of our own mind. Our eyes alone cannot handle looking at the sun; so no shame at all in admitting that our eyes cannot see the creator. 

So. . . you think we cannot notice God, because there's so much of God all around us that we are overwhelmed?

Nah. I'm overwhelmed by the existence of disease and death in infants. I'm overwhelmed by the number of religious killings, institutional rapes and other horrors that followers of "God" perpetrate.

Quote:.If the universe is not finely tuned to support life, life won't exist. God does what he wants; including the creating of humans inside a ball full of water next to a burning star.

Cool story, bro. Where's the evidence?

Quote:.We can't change the conditions which we are made in. We can produce imaginary images in our brains; but we can never change any variable. The universe came with these variables; for example existence meets non-existence. Everything we create, think or make, is a subject to this domain we are born into.

So what? We are part of a system greater than ourselves, and nobody denies it. We just deny that Sky Daddy made it that way.

(May 20, 2017 at 9:49 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Life cannot evolve in a universe that can't understand what life is.

The universe understands nothing, and yet life -did- evolve. So that one's untrue on it's face.

Quote:As an example; human life needs an environment. Without suitable environment human life would not exist.

Granted.

Quote:Evolution itself is a process that gained authorization from the universe at hand.

No, it's not. Let evolutionary theory tell you what evolution is, not the other way round.

Quote:If the universe shut down the evolutionary route;

lolhow? Flip it's nonswitch with it's nonfingers?

Quote:life would cease to exist.

Doesn't follow even if the above were true.  

...........wtf?