(July 26, 2017 at 11:39 am)Fireball Wrote: It's kind of scary that those people would be glaring at you for such a chicken-shit reason. I guess it shows how easily people can be turned on others. I wouldn't have prayed, either. They should be glaring at him for trying to start trouble, IMO.

It shows how religious mentalities foster hostility to out-groups if anything. And how they expect/demand undeserved respect for their delusions.

(July 26, 2017 at 2:44 am)Astonished Wrote: I'm of the mind that someone's delusions resulting from indoctrination can result in that sort of mental illness that wouldn't otherwise materialize if not for the massive cognitive dissonance they're juggling in their heads. I mean, if the guy was so firmly of the belief that god would provide everything he was asking for, and was continually disappointed by that throughout his teens and twenties, and had to keep coming up with ways to rationalize how a good god could just so callously ignore a devout believer, then of course he's going to drive himself fucking nuts.

This was the impression that I got and I found it highly disturbing. I wonder how much of a role religion has in driving people mad.

(July 26, 2017 at 2:44 am)Astonished Wrote: But if they are 'too far gone' as you say, I have no idea. I mean, yeah, they can be institutionalized for the remainder of their sad, empty lives, so what's the harm if the delusion is maintained by their caregivers as long as they don't interact with the general populace in any way? But only if those caregivers don't genuinely believe and are doing it out of pity, otherwise it would probably tend to get a little too weird.

I was thinking about this kind of place for Alzheimer's patients, where they basically live in a fake world because they are incapable of understanding the real one. I feel like it's a slippery slope to delude people selectively based on their capability. It seems easy, and it seems compassionate, but I don't think I would ever want to live that kind of life.

(July 26, 2017 at 2:44 am)Astonished Wrote: But the idea should be not to instill those delusions in the fucking first place. It's a goddamn human rights violation. Parents should get to name you, and that's it. The rest should be determined by the professionals; vaccinations, education, etc. Parents have proven time and again that they're incapable of doing things properly.

Well, some parents manage to botch naming their kids by spelling normal names in ridiculous ways and such.  
Seriously, though, in your view you think the solution to indoctrination is to standardize the ideologies under which children are raised? Who, then, is setting these standards? For example, look at the current state of the USA. Would you really want the US government setting the standards for what children are learning? With the number of interests from religions and corporations (I consider them similar entities) basically owning governments, I don't think the standard they would set would be of rationality. More likely of consumerism.

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(July 26, 2017 at 10:28 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: It's terrible theology. If the Christian God is real, he doesn't tabulate the number of prayers you get or how much sympathy you can arouse. If the person sincerely prays for God's help, that's enough, and if God doesn't come through, sometimes the answer is 'no'. In fact, going around asking for prayers is the last thing the person should be doing, as a believing Christian, they should be on their knees begging God for mercy, and then get to work in faith that God will come through for them, not soliciting telepathic shout-outs.  

Nodding and acceding (or pretending to accede) to the guy's request isn't helping, it's polite apathy.

I know. It's just madness that people think that 'soliciting telepathic shout-outs' is a way to solve a problem. It actually pisses me off that the church indoctrinated this guy and so many others to think that is effective. It's plainly misleading, and if you are relying on prayer to do a damn thing for you, you are going to make worse decisions than someone who is looking at all the real factors influencing their situation. This may seem innocuous at the level I saw here, but that same complacency becomes dangerous when you have people making life and death decisions based on the hope that prayer is going to be effective. It manifests as everything from people using prayer over medicine, to politicians who send 'thoughts and prayers.'

(July 26, 2017 at 12:43 pm)shadow Wrote:

(July 26, 2017 at 2:44 am)Astonished Wrote: I'm of the mind that someone's delusions resulting from indoctrination can result in that sort of mental illness that wouldn't otherwise materialize if not for the massive cognitive dissonance they're juggling in their heads. I mean, if the guy was so firmly of the belief that god would provide everything he was asking for, and was continually disappointed by that throughout his teens and twenties, and had to keep coming up with ways to rationalize how a good god could just so callously ignore a devout believer, then of course he's going to drive himself fucking nuts.

This was the impression that I got and I found it highly disturbing. I wonder how much of a role religion has in driving people mad.

(July 26, 2017 at 2:44 am)Astonished Wrote: But if they are 'too far gone' as you say, I have no idea. I mean, yeah, they can be institutionalized for the remainder of their sad, empty lives, so what's the harm if the delusion is maintained by their caregivers as long as they don't interact with the general populace in any way? But only if those caregivers don't genuinely believe and are doing it out of pity, otherwise it would probably tend to get a little too weird.

I was thinking about this kind of place for Alzheimer's patients, where they basically live in a fake world because they are incapable of understanding the real one. I feel like it's a slippery slope to delude people selectively based on their capability. It seems easy, and it seems compassionate, but I don't think I would ever want to live that kind of life.

(July 26, 2017 at 2:44 am)Astonished Wrote: But the idea should be not to instill those delusions in the fucking first place. It's a goddamn human rights violation. Parents should get to name you, and that's it. The rest should be determined by the professionals; vaccinations, education, etc. Parents have proven time and again that they're incapable of doing things properly.

Well, some parents manage to botch naming their kids by spelling normal names in ridiculous ways and such.  
Seriously, though, in your view you think the solution to indoctrination is to standardize the ideologies under which children are raised? Who, then, is setting these standards? For example, look at the current state of the USA. Would you really want the US government setting the standards for what children are learning? With the number of interests from religions and corporations (I consider them similar entities) basically owning governments, I don't think the standard they would set would be of rationality. More likely of consumerism.

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(July 26, 2017 at 10:28 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: It's terrible theology. If the Christian God is real, he doesn't tabulate the number of prayers you get or how much sympathy you can arouse. If the person sincerely prays for God's help, that's enough, and if God doesn't come through, sometimes the answer is 'no'. In fact, going around asking for prayers is the last thing the person should be doing, as a believing Christian, they should be on their knees begging God for mercy, and then get to work in faith that God will come through for them, not soliciting telepathic shout-outs.  

Nodding and acceding (or pretending to accede) to the guy's request isn't helping, it's polite apathy.

I know. It's just madness that people think that 'soliciting telepathic shout-outs' is a way to solve a problem. It actually pisses me off that the church indoctrinated this guy and so many others to think that is effective. It's plainly misleading, and if you are relying on prayer to do a damn thing for you, you are going to make worse decisions than someone who is looking at all the real factors influencing their situation. This may seem innocuous at the level I saw here, but that same complacency becomes dangerous when you have people making life and death decisions based on the hope that prayer is going to be effective. It manifests as everything from people using prayer over medicine, to politicians who send 'thoughts and prayers.'

I mean in terms of what's real and not real. Medicine works, prayer doesn't. Science works, faith doesn't. That kind of shit. Parents shouldn't have the right to fuck their kids over like that with declining to let them learn evolution or force them to be homeschooled and sheltered from reality. And I said PROFESSIONALS, not empty-headed political pundits who manage to bilk the deluded majority into voting for them. The people who don't listen to the scientists about things like climate change? NOT professionals, no matter what position or office they hold. It's the same thing with someone who holds a Ph.D in theology; they're not a fucking doctor, I don't give a shit what they say. Might as well say they have a Ph.D in masturbation or rectal stretching.

It's like I've said before, opening the door to irrationality means all bets are off. It's like a gateway drug, some people are going to completely lose themselves in it, others perhaps not, but why the fuck would you take the risk, or force someone else to try it, especially someone you love and are trying to help and protect? But then, the parents who are 'addicts' of this delusion and go on to indoctrinate their kids don't see reality that way and become the very drug-pushers they think they want to protect their kids from. Is a lifetime of that shit really worth the chance that it only might bring them a modicum of comfort on their deathbed?

(July 26, 2017 at 1:57 am)shadow Wrote: Should we foster delusion?

No, but we should choose our battles. Arguing with a random nutter in a train station isn't one of them.

Quote:The guy eventually wandered off and bothered other people with the same question. The funny thing was, EVERY other person nodded and smiled to him. Some people said stuff like 'of course' in a fake cheery voice.

As far as I can see every other person got it right. Nod, smile and back away slowly.

Quote:Once we boarded the train, he pointed towards me and told a group of random people that I had refused to pray for him. Suddenly half the train car was glaring at me.

More details please. Are these the same randoms he approached on the platform? How many was half the train car? Half of six is three, half of sixty is thirty.

Quote:he pointed towards me and told a group of random people that I had refused to pray for him.

How can you be sure of what he said?
"See that bloke over there with the headphones, he asked me to come back to his house for some sexy fun time".

Quote:So, I considered, why is everyone egging him on and supporting his delusions?

See above. You have no idea what this random nutter said.

Quote:There are some people, and we all know them, who there is no point arguing with.

How very ingratiating. Why the fuck did you bother in this particular case? Could it be just possible the bloke was a bored wind up merchant?

[True anecdote]
Danny, a friend of mine from years back was a master at fucking with peoples heads. One day prior to the pub session we stopped off at the fag shop and I spotted him pointing  at the sweetie counter. His delivery and timing was perfect.

'Excuse me miss, how much is that Mars Bar?'
The miss, utterly bewildered, replyed, twenty six pence!
After a few moments, Danny with one hand on his waist and the other stroking his chin said. Hmm, ok, I may be back later, I have a few more to look at.
I laughed all the way to the alehouse.

I'm not sure what the point of this story is, but as Danny would say:
"Improve your life, do these things, It is our duty to fuck with peoples heads, make the fuckers think."
Last I herd ten years ago was Danny was down to his last liver. So maybe the
train spotting blaggard was me old pal, reincarnated.

In my youth I once pushed aside a street preacher asking to pray with me. I said "Go jump in a lake of fire , Christian dog!"

Now, I would respond as the OP did.

(July 26, 2017 at 9:45 pm)Succubus Wrote:

(July 26, 2017 at 1:57 am)shadow Wrote: Should we foster delusion?

No, but we should choose our battles. Arguing with a random nutter in a train station isn't one of them.

Quote:The guy eventually wandered off and bothered other people with the same question. The funny thing was, EVERY other person nodded and smiled to him. Some people said stuff like 'of course' in a fake cheery voice.

As far as I can see every other person got it right. Nod, smile and back away slowly.

I don't know about you, but I still see a random nutter as a person (and for the record, this guy did not stand out as being that way until I had talked to him for a minute). Would you still react this way if it was a Joho canvasing you and trying to convert you? What makes this guy nuts but mormons and Islamic extremists sane?

(July 26, 2017 at 9:45 pm)Succubus Wrote: More details please. Are these the same randoms he approached on the platform? How many was half the train car? Half of six is three, half of sixty is thirty.

How can you be sure of what he said?
"See that bloke over there with the headphones, he asked me to come back to his house for some sexy fun time".

Maybe 12 people or so. I could hear him talking to them. What you suggested would be a pretty freaking weird thing to tell a bunch of commuters about a teenage girl, right?

Quote:

Quote:There are some people, and we all know them, who there is no point arguing with.

How very ingratiating. Why the fuck did you bother in this particular case? Could it be just possible the bloke was a bored wind up merchant?

This is sort of my question. Why did I bother? Why does anyone bother being the only sane one in the room?

Guy: Can you pray for me? Can you pray for me to get a job and get a driver's license and find a girlfriend?
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Somebody should tell him that's not the way it works!
15 years ago I was just out of jail (3 month vigilante rap), homeless, jobless, womanless and near-penniless, living rough in a tent in a remote wood shivering with thyroid problems, but not for an instant did I feel the need to pray for myself or ask others to pray for me because I was too busy laughing at myself.
"Great" I thought, "I've ended up as Bigfoot!
The moral? Our fate is in our own hands, I've always had christian values which make us regard the world as a cabaret, not to be taken seriously..

Seems more like 15 years ago you were still in your sperm donor's sack. Surely Gam-Gam and Pop-Pop who foster your narcissistic delusions wouldn't deny you the room in their basement where you learned to type with one hand like you're doing now.

But why are you so certain that theist folks are delusional though? Don't you think there is a chance that a theist could be right? 

I guess the reason I'm saying this is because my impression has been that most atheists take the stance that there is a possibility that some sort of god or gods could exist. There just isn't sufficient evidence for them personally to be convinced of it. 

It's a far jump from thinking that way to making the claim that theists are delusional. 

With that being said, you have every right to tell the man that you will not pray for him because you don't believe in it. That is your choice of course. But I just don't agree with it being referred to as "fostering a delusion" if you told him yes, when you can't be sure that it is a delusion.

(July 29, 2017 at 3:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But why are you so certain that theist folks are delusional though? Don't you think there is a chance that a theist could be right? 

I guess the reason I'm saying this is because my impression has been that most atheists take the stance that there is a possibility that some sort of god or gods could exist. There just isn't sufficient evidence for them personally to be convinced of it. 

It's a far jump from thinking that way to making the claim that theists are delusional. 

With that being said, you have every right to tell the man that you will not pray for him because you don't believe in it. That is your choice of course. But I just don't agree with it being referred to as "fostering a delusion" if you told him yes, when you can't be sure that it is a delusion.

Delusion is not a great leap.

When you logically compare theists, who believe in something without sufficient evidence to prove its existence, with insane asylum inmates, who believe whatever crazy stuff they do without sufficient evidence to prove the existence of whatever it is in which they believe, then it is easier to understand how delusion is not a big leap.

Psychologists today are slowly beginning to compare religious beliefs to delusion; the only thing that has kept religious belief from fully being described as a delusion is the sad fact that many people adhere to this thing called religion, as though the word alone is a safeguard against insanity.