(July 29, 2017 at 3:37 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I feel like I don't belong on here anymore, like I'm not welcome. Idk. Just a feeling I get. I don't feel this way on another atheist forum I had joined and returned to, but it just feels that way here.

Not to negate your feelings (you feel what you feel -- there's nothing "wrong" about any of it) -- but apart from your feelings is there some objective reason to think you're not welcome here? Personally I am glad you're here. I've not seen 100% agreement with 100% of everything you've said, which is true of all of us ... but I haven't seen any sentiment that you're not welcome. At all.

Of course ... I can't speak for others, I'm just observing. As for me ... hope you stay and participate.

Like I keep telling my stepson, Other People don't pay nearly so much attention or view you nearly so critically as you tend to think they do :-)

(July 29, 2017 at 3:37 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: I feel like I don't belong on here anymore, like I'm not welcome. Idk. Just a feeling I get. I don't feel this way on another atheist forum I had joined and returned to, but it just feels that way here.

Que?  I'm not entirely familiar with your history here, but it seems like you're well-meaning, polite, and genuinely trying to assess what you do/don't believe.  That makes you a solid addition to this place as far as I'm concerned.

Okay, guys, thank youuu. Really. I think lately, I've been all over the place with my feelings. One day, I'm totally resolved. Another day, I'm conflicted. I mean, atheism is a position that actually comes easier to me than religion, tbh. It is a position that makes sense, and it's based on reason and facts. I like how that feels. I'm just trying to manage the rest of it, and find the balance, and I'm getting there. I think that's maybe where this is coming from, the not feeling welcome thing.

I try to be kind and understanding to everyone here, and hope that it's felt.

Even if you cannot manage it somehow, I'd appreciate you as you are for that nonetheless.

(July 29, 2017 at 7:54 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: Okay, guys, thank youuu. Really. I think lately, I've been all over the place with my feelings. One day, I'm totally resolved. Another day, I'm conflicted. I mean, atheism is a position that actually comes easier to me than religion, tbh. It is a position that makes sense, and it's based on reason and facts. I like how that feels. I'm just trying to manage the rest of it, and find the balance, and I'm getting there. I think that's maybe where this is coming from, the not feeling welcome thing.

I try to be kind and understanding to everyone here, and hope that it's felt.

If you're anywhere under the age of 25, and sometimes aways past that, some of the brain wiring is not complete and can add to the problem. I well remember being young and having (at least relatively, for me) my feelings "all over the place". It gets better, and it strikes me that you're doing a very good job of becoming your best self. :-) You'll be fine.

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. I feel better today.

(July 29, 2017 at 7:54 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: Okay, guys, thank youuu. Really. I think lately, I've been all over the place with my feelings. One day, I'm totally resolved. Another day, I'm conflicted. I mean, atheism is a position that actually comes easier to me than religion, tbh. It is a position that makes sense, and it's based on reason and facts. I like how that feels. I'm just trying to manage the rest of it, and find the balance, and I'm getting there. I think that's maybe where this is coming from, the not feeling welcome thing.

I try to be kind and understanding to everyone here, and hope that it's felt.

The feeling you have many have felt. It comes from a lifetime of being told something flawed. Most humans adapt the religion their parents hand down to them. 

But it really should not be that hard to figure out.

Between these two examples, which do you think is more likely and which do you think is less likely?

1. There really is a super natural being by any name, pick one out of the countless claimed in human history?

Or.

2. Humans make them up and they are just a projection of their own qualities?

Also keep in mind our species is far older than any written religion or nation. Keep in mind that our planet is 4 billion years old. Keep in mind our universe is 13.8 billion years old.

Does it make sense to you that any type of super cognition would do all that and only wait until 10,000 years ago to finally say something? 

Many of us here took weeks, months and even years to go from the initial doubt to fully giving up on the idea. I remember the exact question a co worker asked me that got me to start to doubt, but it took me several more years to give up on it entirely. It would have happened a lot faster if I had my current knowledge back then. 

Your fear of "what if I am wrong, and there is a god" is normal, but that is not a good reason to cling to it.

Hedging your bets to be safe "just in case" is what is known as "the fallacy of Pascal's wager".

Trust us, nothing bad will happen to you, there is no sky hero there to threaten or bribe you. You will still have ups and downs in life. But you can view both the good and bad in life as being natural, not super natural.

(July 30, 2017 at 12:48 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 29, 2017 at 7:54 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: Okay, guys, thank youuu. Really. I think lately, I've been all over the place with my feelings. One day, I'm totally resolved. Another day, I'm conflicted. I mean, atheism is a position that actually comes easier to me than religion, tbh. It is a position that makes sense, and it's based on reason and facts. I like how that feels. I'm just trying to manage the rest of it, and find the balance, and I'm getting there. I think that's maybe where this is coming from, the not feeling welcome thing.

I try to be kind and understanding to everyone here, and hope that it's felt.

The feeling you have many have felt. It comes from a lifetime of being told something flawed. Most humans adapt the religion their parents hand down to them. 

But it really should not be that hard to figure out.

Between these two examples, which do you think is more likely and which do you think is less likely?

1. There really is a super natural being by any name, pick one out of the countless claimed in human history?

Or.

2. Humans make them up and they are just a projection of their own qualities?

Also keep in mind our species is far older than any written religion or nation. Keep in mind that our planet is 4 billion years old. Keep in mind our universe is 13.8 billion years old.

Does it make sense to you that any type of super cognition would do all that and only wait until 10,000 years ago to finally say something? 

Many of us here took weeks, months and even years to go from the initial doubt to fully giving up on the idea. I remember the exact question a co worker asked me that got me to start to doubt, but it took me several more years to give up on it entirely. It would have happened a lot faster if I had my current knowledge back then. 

Your fear of "what if I am wrong, and there is a god" is normal, but that is not a good reason to cling to it.

Hedging your bets to be safe "just in case" is what is known as "the fallacy of Pascal's wager".

Trust us, nothing bad will happen to you, there is no sky hero there to threaten or bribe you. You will still have ups and downs in life. But you can view both the good and bad in life as being natural, not super natural.

I have tears in my eyes reading this, thank you for taking the time to post this. You have no idea how this has helped today. It just feels comforting to know I'm heard, that I'm making sense, and that I'm not crazy for feeling conflicted sometimes.

(July 30, 2017 at 1:11 pm)*Deidre* Wrote:

(July 30, 2017 at 12:48 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The feeling you have many have felt. It comes from a lifetime of being told something flawed. Most humans adapt the religion their parents hand down to them. 

But it really should not be that hard to figure out.

Between these two examples, which do you think is more likely and which do you think is less likely?

1. There really is a super natural being by any name, pick one out of the countless claimed in human history?

Or.

2. Humans make them up and they are just a projection of their own qualities?

Also keep in mind our species is far older than any written religion or nation. Keep in mind that our planet is 4 billion years old. Keep in mind our universe is 13.8 billion years old.

Does it make sense to you that any type of super cognition would do all that and only wait until 10,000 years ago to finally say something? 

Many of us here took weeks, months and even years to go from the initial doubt to fully giving up on the idea. I remember the exact question a co worker asked me that got me to start to doubt, but it took me several more years to give up on it entirely. It would have happened a lot faster if I had my current knowledge back then. 

Your fear of "what if I am wrong, and there is a god" is normal, but that is not a good reason to cling to it.

Hedging your bets to be safe "just in case" is what is known as "the fallacy of Pascal's wager".

Trust us, nothing bad will happen to you, there is no sky hero there to threaten or bribe you. You will still have ups and downs in life. But you can view both the good and bad in life as being natural, not super natural.

I have tears in my eyes reading this, thank you for taking the time to post this. You have no idea how this has helped today. It just feels comforting to know I'm heard, that I'm making sense, and that I'm not crazy for feeling conflicted sometimes.

It is an unfortunate part of our species to hand down the ideas to children without benefit of critical thinking. While we will never 100% get rid of that flaw in our evolution, I am more upset with those around you that scared you so much to sell you the idea of being dependent on a utopia that does not exist. 

There certainly are liberal theists who don't scare their children like this. But far too many on the right, of all religions do. Trust me, you are not insane for accepting there is no God or that you are finite. 

Think about it, do you live in fear of your pre life when you didn't exist? So why would an after life feel any different? That does not make one fatalistic to accept the ride is finite. Atheists can and do find good even in a temporary blip. 

You can find good in life knowing the ride ends. You can be compassionate knowing the ride ends. You are not evil because you question doubt or simply do not believe. Our species behaviors both good and bad have always existed, long before someone planted that myth in your head. 

Thank you. for your kind comments.

(July 29, 2017 at 1:42 pm)*Deidre* Wrote:

(July 29, 2017 at 12:55 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Deidre, if I may ask, what was this experience? I promise to give you my objective opinion on it, whether it was likely to have had a logical explanation or not. 

Hi CL - 

This was during the same year that my grandmother died, 2015 - like about 8 months after, and I had been struggling with atheism. I was searching into other religions, aside from Christianity. I wasn't practicing any one particular faith. One day, I felt like the ''Holy Spirit'' was in the room with me. I just felt this overwhelming sense of peace and joy, and it felt like an actual breeze or wind had come through the room. I know it might sound crazy, but I googled this, and people have ''reported'' incidents of having these same types of feelings and chalked it up to a Holy Spirit experience. There are more details than this, but that is the gist, and I think I made the leap to faith, because I was identifying as an atheist then. Became rather indifferent after searching for answers in other faiths after my grandmother's death, so I just resigned myself to the fact that okay, I'm okay with there being no god. But, a few months back into faith, I logically didn't believe the Bible, and still almost felt like I was being intellectually dishonest. Fast forward to a few weeks ago, and this is where I'm at with it.

I read something recently about religion/faith, and how there is a scientific explanation as to how our brains tend to bring about a desired effect, so perhaps I was searching for something more to exist, and maybe I just was having a great day in general, and applied faith to the moment. Supposedly, there is a scientific explanation for what we think should happen from faith, and it actually happening, and our minds draw conclusions that there is no logical explanation, it had to be a faith ‘’experience.’’ Or a miracle of some type. But, it felt real back then, when it happened.

Thank you for sharing your story. 

It's impossible to give an opinion on this case in particular because what you experienced was mostly internal/emotional... it wasn't anything tangible that I can really analyze. (unless you mean that literally there was a wave of physical wind in the room, in that case we can talk about whether there were any windows open, vents on, etc)

So yeah, it could have been just your own body naturally feeling that way, and not the Holy Spirit. But I also think it doesn't rule out being the Holy Spirit. And here's why... 

I can tell you I've fallen to my knees and prayed in my most desperate of times, and I've really looked for and hoped to feel the Holy Spirit in those times. I too have heard about people having these supernatural experiences with the Holy Spirit, so I've wanted it to happen to me, and I've looked for it, and sometimes even expected it because I was praying so hard and needing Jesus so much. Nonetheless, I've never been able to feel that. So I'm not sure that it can be so easily explained away like, "oh you only felt that because you expected to, so your body made it up." Because I have have expected it and wanted it, and yet never felt it. And didn't you say you were atheist at the time? So I imagine you were never expecting any of that when it happened. 

Now, I'm not saying that this must mean it truly was the Holy Spirit. I just don't think the old "you felt it because you expected it" is a satisfactory explanation for how this happened to you.