(December 28, 2017 at 10:37 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: So, if you haven't seen the movie mentioned in the OP, this video might fill you in on where the documentarian is coming from. A little bit chicken little, but she made a couple valid points. I don't see why changing her mind about MRAs caused her to renounce feminism though. Assuming that every single point made by the MRAs was correct, that's no reason to conclude that women have nothing to fight for in society. Her characterization of MRAs was as a movement not opposed to feminism. However, the result of MRAs gaining her sympathies was for her to discontinue her feminist activism. Odd...







What I see as compelling is what she had to say about "dehumanizing the enemy." I used to see conservatives as a collective of idiots. In my hometown (in rural Appalachia) there are a great deal of conservatives who are so set in their way of thinking, it would be beyond them to even consider a leftist position. When I would debate politics with them, I would always "tow the line." When they would mention public waste I would retort, "But there is corporate waste, too." What ever point they had to make, I made a counterpoint.

But around two years ago, I started taking a different approach. I would acknowledge that things like public waste were bad instead of just immediatly comparing it to corporate waste. And the weird thing is, once they felt they  were being heard, they were more receptive to my points. Just by admitting they had a point about public waste (and they did) I was able to proceed in our discourse as someone who can find common ground them. Sometimes people just want to be heard. There's nothing wrong with that.

I should probably admit I'm a total hippie/peacenik, and I really get off on that kumbaya shit. So what I'm saying here may have more to do with respecting different points of view than feminism. Tizheruk said something about half of MRAs being addicted to their own anger, while the other half were crypto-antifeminists. Perhaps some are. But let's assume that a significant portion become activists taking the platform at face value. If we allow that MRAs have some valid points, it seems to be trivializing the anger of some because others in the movement have dubious intentions. The right does the same thing, trivializes the anger of BLM and feminists. Bad practice I think. Leads to less listening.

But then again, Thumpalumpacus had a good point:

(December 28, 2017 at 12:37 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: That doesn't, however, mean that every cause is equal. Given the length and breadth of male social dominance, there seems to be a big mote/beam factor not being considered by MRA groups.

A simple stroll through the history books proves that women were utterly disenfranchised since the birth of civilized society. It isn't a simple issue of changing a few laws to set it right; it is unearthing prejudices embedded deep within our culture.

But, just like feminists, some MRAs appear to be motivated to unwind the cultural fabric of traditional gender roles, so there is common ground between the two movements.

I'm going to double down on what I said before: any group ought to be able to advocate for the rights of its members. I think the real issue isn't MRAs, but antifeminism. If men want to fight societal norms that do not work in their favor, this should have no bearing on women trying to do the same. If you are a men's rights activist fighting for something like equal consideration in custody battles, they need not oppose women seeking equality in the professional arena etc.

Inasmuch as MRAs are advocating for the advancement of justice in arenas where it is lacking for men, I take no issue with it. If a movement feels the need to oppose the activism of marginalized people (feminists in this case), then they are just standing in the way of progress.

Nope the real reason she took the red pill was because she was pissy at feminists who would not fund her propaganda film . So she went begging to the MRA for money despite her original promise to not take donations from interested parties . And her refusal to allow a large number of feminists who wanted to speak under anonymity to avoid the inevitable death threats and harassment  they would receive from the MRA . She's not some open minded saint she's dishonest two timing bitch. 

As for the idea of altering culture . That definitely not my experience with them . Most want to go back to the toxic masculinity of the past . There not a progress movement and they no real interest in men's rights .These issues are just there means of keeping men angry and pointing that anger at the wrong target  . And as i have said there are real Non MRA groups doing the heavy lifting.

As for showing me an ex feminist i raise you an ex FEMRA . Who worked for AVFM and was fired because she criticized Paul Elms and criticized the hostility within the organization. 

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(December 28, 2017 at 11:44 am)Grandizer Wrote: So I just had a look at some of the threads in the Reddit group for "The Red Pill", purportedly a subgroup of "MRAs", and all I can say is what a disgusting group. Is this the same Red Pill movement referenced in the documentary title? Or is it just a coincidence?

To heck with subreddits go read what some of the MRA's leadership think

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(December 28, 2017 at 1:15 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 12:58 pm)Grandizer Wrote: That's what feminism generally is. Gender equality. The Red Pill guys don't seem to give two shits about advancing men's rights, they just want to have the "right" to be misogynists without shame.

She'd prefer to be an advocate for women's issues and men's issues without taking on the title of either feminist or MRA. Is that allowed? I'm not sure why you seem bothered by this. She supports women's issues. Why do you care whether or not she chooses to label herself feminist?

Ill tell you what. If you disagree with or have a problem with anything she said on her ted talk (besides her choosing not to use the label feminist for herself I guess), please let us know what that is so we can talk about it rather than talking about random anonymous people on reddit. If you don't disagree with anything she says, then it seems you and I have nothing to argue about here.

Aside her being an MRA tool

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(December 28, 2017 at 2:17 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 10:53 am)Grandizer Wrote: I know, you mindlessly agree with strawmen arguments.

It's not a strawman unless you can prove it is a strawman. Your posts on the topic prove my point, but anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/ You'll find plenty of anti-male sentiment there. You'll have to do the looking yourself, but I found at least three on the front page.

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I think, for the most part, people are saying they find feminism by the definition you all seem to favor fine. A lot of us also find that feminism in that context is useful because women aren't quite equal, and neither are men. The only issue here seems to be that some people don't want to call themselves feminists because there isn't a core definition for the term, which I said probably around 40 pages ago. Unless anyone has a problem with that specific statement and can give a good reason for it, there doesn't seem to be anything to debate.

Thump, I didn't suggest that MRA and feminism are equal movements. Sure, one is probably needed more than the other. That doesn't mean that some men don't have legitimate complaints which is basically all I've been trying to say.

Yeah if only feminist leaders were that awful . Oh wait MRA leaders are.

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(December 28, 2017 at 5:48 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 5:41 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: There is no conversation to be had with the MRA . Best avoid them and look for groups that actually will solve the problem.

I'm talking about the conversation we're having about men's rights activism. Last I checked, neither of us is MRA.

Oh i stand corrected . But my point really has not changed

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Quote:The easiest path to wealth and success for attractive women is through their open legs. Nobody cares. The easiest path to sexual success for men being in control of the assets and power for which many of these women are not inclined to work. When it goes sour, everyone loses their minds and wants to go postal on the man.

Cue the outrage machine and make plenty of room under the bus for all the male offenders and their enablers.

MRA leader Paul Elms talking about how Harvey Weinstein is the real victim 

https://archive.is/IKzyd

Quote:Even years down the road the women who willingly and aggressively pursue using sex to gain power from men can suddenly and successfully paint themselves in the light of victim and cash in a second time, usually to much more painful effect.

Paul Elms again 

Quote:[E]very time a woman gets a promotion or a raise from fellating her boss, someone else, probably someone harder working and more deserving, gets left out in the cold. Often, it’s other women who are less attractive, or who won’t suck dick for an edge at work.

And again 

Then not a peep about this 
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sexual...rs-n810016

(December 28, 2017 at 2:17 pm)Shell B Wrote:

(December 28, 2017 at 10:53 am)Grandizer Wrote: I know, you mindlessly agree with strawmen arguments.

It's not a strawman unless you can prove it is a strawman.

Uh, it was clear what I requested. Burden is on you to prove you didnt strawman me. For one, I never said all negative quotes said by feminists were taken out of context. I will grant that you might have misunderstood me since Im not as great of a writer as you are.

Quote: Your posts on the topic prove my point, but anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/ You'll find plenty of anti-male sentiment there. You'll have to do the looking yourself, but I found at least three on the front page.

Seems pretty mild. I didnt see any anti-men yet. I see one thread that pokes fun at the silliness of MRA, but the rest were about empowerment of women and encouraging them to go for it and all that. Way too mild compared to the red pill reddit that was disgusting as fuck, encouraging men to treat women as expendables.

Oh yes horrible shit like 

Women's Progress in Kiribati

As U.S. women go to jail in record numbers, who's watching out for their kids? No one

We Asked 615 Men About How They Conduct Themselves at Work - The New York Times


Those evil man hating bitches

(December 28, 2017 at 7:04 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Oh yes those horrible shit like 

Women's Progress in Kiribati

As U.S. women go to jail in record numbers, who's watching out for their kids? No one

We Asked 615 Men About How They Conduct Themselves at Work - The New York Times


Those evil man hating bitches

I know, right? We should give them crap for wanting to talk about womens rights all over the world instead of giving advice on how to treat men like dogs. Feminists are doing it wrong!

On a serious note, Paul Elam is disgusting and the commenters to his articles re just as bad. Pretty obvious why PC is not always a bad thing.

It's like trying to reason with a wall

(December 28, 2017 at 7:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's like trying to reason with a wall

You should see how I feel when I interact with you in these discussions.

It's like describing Mozart to a totally deaf person . Or a Van Gogh to totally blind person.

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Quote:On a serious note, Paul Elam is disgusting and the commenters to his articles re just as bad. Pretty obvious why PC is not always a bad thing.

And the tragedy is his opinions are not rare in the MRA . And are given tacit approval by the vast majority of it's "stars". Hell Mike Cernovich one of The Red Pills financial backers being among them . Thou he claims not to be an MRA .

(December 28, 2017 at 6:48 pm)Grandizer Wrote: Uh, it was clear what I requested. Burden is on you to prove you didnt strawman me. For one, I never said all negative quotes said by feminists were taken out of context. I will grant that you might have misunderstood me since Im not as great of a writer as you are.

Firstly, that's not how burden of proof works. You called it a strawman, so you'd have to say how. However, that's not at all a problem because I said "if" when I mentioned saying all negative feminist quotes are taken out context. I may not have conveyed well that I really meant if. We can't have a reasonable conversation if that's how it will be. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic about my writing because I'm not actually very good in comparison to other professional writers, but I'm sure you're just fine.

Quote:Seems pretty mild. I didnt see any anti-men yet. I see one thread that pokes fun at the silliness of MRA, but the rest were about empowerment of women and encouraging them to go for it and all that. Way too mild compared to the red pill reddit that was disgusting as fuck, encouraging men to treat women as expendables.

It's very mild compared to the red pill reddit, which I completely agree is absolutely disgusting. I'm not personally comparing the two, but you were obviously looking for something more vitriolic than what I grabbed giving myself a few minutes to search. That said, I myself saw at least one thread telling women not to trust male feminists. That's pretty anti-male by my esteem. It may not be violent, but I probably wouldn't have to look far. It is reddit, after all. Here's another one that can get really crazy. https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/

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(December 28, 2017 at 7:04 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Oh yes  horrible shit like 

Women's Progress in Kiribati

As U.S. women go to jail in record numbers, who's watching out for their kids? No one

We Asked 615 Men About How They Conduct Themselves at Work - The New York Times


Those evil man hating bitches

Tell ya to look for the anti-male stuff that is actually posted in there, and I can rely on you not to bother at all and try to use mild, reasonable posts as proof the other posts don't exist. Okaaaay. As for the women going to jail in record numbers one, um, maybe they shouldn't fuck up and take care of their own kids? I can't even fathom what they could be complaining about with that thread.

There is a damn good reason to be suspicious of male feminists . As a many creeps use feminism as a pick up line .And their have been cases were creeps have used feminist credentials to molest women. As for your notion that i go looking for anti male stuff on the site . These were the most recent and some of the highest rated posts on the site so it's clear the anti male stuff you insist infests the feminist reddit is not there. And i never said there were no negative posts but if they exist (thou i have not found any yet. And i frequently read and know people on feminist reddit   ) they are a blip. Compared to MRA leaders stating the kind of stuff above . So yeah there is that .

as a recent feminist myself. i just want to point out that i'm a heterosexual male and have never even mentioned/used the word feminist in my daily life or speech. no one cares about that crap. i dont want this label of being a creep using it for picking up women. so i no longer identify as feminist. was good while it lasted (like 2 days i think).

done with this childish competition male vs female drama.