(March 31, 2018 at 12:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: For people who saw glory in battle, this would be a huge thing to deter them, as ancients would find this the biggest consequence. More harder then even the slaughter of their heroes and men.

Do you even know people?  Telling me that you're going to rape my daughter isn't a deterrent to war..it's a reason for me to burn you out of your bed while you sleep.  Thankfully, I'll leave your little girls alone when I;m done dealing with you.....because I'm not a godamned monster........

Does allah know the people he's supposed to have created?  Wouldn't he understand this basic fact about us, even if you don't? Is this his justification, does he approve?

(March 31, 2018 at 12:13 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 11:59 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I understand, but trying to seeing reasons that justify, aren't necessarily romanticizing it.

But if we already know what the justifications were historically, then why try to come up with better and fairly new justifications just to suit the sensibilities of the more civilized religious mind? It doesn't come off as honest to me. People back then didn't know any better compared to us, so they did shit back then that was considered ok to them but is now clearly seen as barbaric to us, and so naturally ancient writings are going to contain verses and passages that just aren't going to appeal morally/ethically to us. And this includes the Qur'an, whether you like it or not. There is nothing special about the Qur'an that would make me want to reconsider my interpretations of the more aggressive verses in it just based on your "what if" argument.

They didn't have the utilities and structure to transcend this, so it was barbaric but it was a necessary evil at that point.

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(March 31, 2018 at 12:16 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 12:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: For people who saw glory in battle, this would be a huge thing to deter them, as ancients would find this the biggest consequence. More harder then even the slaughter of their heroes and men.

Do you even know people?  Telling me that you're going to rape my daughter isn't a deterrent to war..it's a reason for me to burn you out of your bed while you sleep.  Thankfully, I'll leave your little girls alone when I;m done dealing with you.....because I'm not a godamned monster........

Does allah know the people he's supposed to have created?  Wouldn't he understand this basic fact about us, even if you don't?

I think I understand people think twice of attacking, if there was no slavery,  people would say, the least that happens to us, is we have to live under their authority so why not just attack them and see what happens.

(March 31, 2018 at 12:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 12:13 pm)Grandizer Wrote: But if we already know what the justifications were historically, then why try to come up with better and fairly new justifications just to suit the sensibilities of the more civilized religious mind? It doesn't come off as honest to me. People back then didn't know any better compared to us, so they did shit back then that was considered ok to them but is now clearly seen as barbaric to us, and so naturally ancient writings are going to contain verses and passages that just aren't going to appeal morally/ethically to us. And this includes the Qur'an, whether you like it or not. There is nothing special about the Qur'an that would make me want to reconsider my interpretations of the more aggressive verses in it just based on your "what if" argument.

They didn't have the utilities and structure to transcend this, so it was barbaric but it was a necessary evil at that point.

And hence why I assign an extremely low credence to the existence of a personal and loving powerful god.

(March 31, 2018 at 12:20 pm)Grandizer Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 12:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 31, 2018 at 12:13 pm)Grandizer Wrote: But if we already know what the justifications were historically, then why try to come up with better and fairly new justifications just to suit the sensibilities of the more civilized religious mind? It doesn't come off as honest to me. People back then didn't know any better compared to us, so they did shit back then that was considered ok to them but is now clearly seen as barbaric to us, and so naturally ancient writings are going to contain verses and passages that just aren't going to appeal morally/ethically to us. And this includes the Qur'an, whether you like it or not. There is nothing special about the Qur'an that would make me want to reconsider my interpretations of the more aggressive verses in it just based on your "what if" argument.

They didn't have the utilities and structure to transcend this, so it was barbaric but it was a necessary evil at that point.

And hence why I assign an extremely low credence to the existence of a personal and loving powerful god.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, the ancients had our sense of compassion and justice, and this how they dealt with war. This how they deterred war, they made consequences for it. 
Otherwise, no one would care for peace, the worst thing that can happen if it were not for spoils of war, is you change rulers, and that is no big deal.

(March 31, 2018 at 12:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think I understand people think twice of attacking, if there was no slavery,  people would say, the least that happens to us, is we have to live under their authority so why not just attack them and see what happens.

Wonderful, you've finally stuck on something.  So to clarify...you've romaticized not only the institution, and the motuivations of other people, you've romanticized the justification itself as a threat.

This is the point where reality falls on all of this horrid shit like a ton of bricks.

It was not a threat.  The caliphate -did- engage in slave raids, utilizing slave armies, deep into territories that posed no threat and had no animosity or other contact with them based upon thew market value of the women as judged by standards of beauty at the time.  Thy also purchased these sex working human chattel from other slaving cultures that -did- attack them whenever the price was right and demand exceeded supply. The quran offered the justification for this trade in the form of an exhortation to buy and fuck a slave if you couldn't afford (or did not have the personal disposition) to have a wife in the manner prescribed by magic book.

-now recall, you've done all of this for no other reason than your need to engage in slavery apologetics on behalf of magic book.

The Caliphate fought wars they had no right to. They did it out lust and greed of spoils.

They twisted the Shariah to suit their purposes and they assaulted people who they had no right to attack in the first place.

They did exactly what magic book told them to.   Magic book -contained- the justification and regulations of the slave trade along with positive advice that a man should avail himself of it to keep from doing bad things.

Does god approve? Did god only approve in that century, has he changed his mind since? Has magic book been rewritten to comport with allahs new opinion on the subject, in this century?

Is magic book an outdated collection of dusty old shit about how to live your life then with no bearing on how you should live your life now?

Was the trafficking of children for the purposes of sex good then, and bad now?

Quran forbids following anything without knowledge. If one it's laws has no place in this century, that if is to be followed now, then either I would have to throw away the book or realize the paradigm it was meant for.

Quran tells us to feed the poor, but we aim for their to be no poor to feed. It tells us to free slaves, but we ought to aim that there be no slaves (and in fact Shiites sources have prayers praying for God to free eventually every slave).

And we are now at the point where we have made a great part of humanity economical slaves. And they ought to be freed as well, and there is a reason Moses is told by Shuaib that he will pay his due and not fall short of it and be good to him and that is important.

When a person works, they deserve a due. And this was a lesson, you are freeing Israelites slave to today, only to prepare them for Mohammad who will free all of humanity from the shackles the dark one seeks to put on them and while it is literally slavery today, don't forget about the economics slaves who are not paid their due effort, and prepare the people to await the Messenger who will be sent to whole world and bring out justice and destroy all Pharoahs.

(March 31, 2018 at 12:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Quran forbids following anything without knowledge. If one it's laws has no place in this century, that if is to be followed now, then either I would have to throw away the book or realize the paradigm it was meant for.

Irrelevant, it may forbid this or that but it both justifies and advises a man to acquire a sex slave.

Quote:Quran tells us to feed the poor, but we aim for their to be no poor to feed. It tells us to free slaves, but we ought to aim that there be no slaves (and in fact Shiites sources have prayers praying for God to free eventually every slave).

It also tells you to buy a girl and fuck the piss out of her.

Quote:And we are now at the point where we have made a great part of humanity economical slaves. And they ought to be freed as well, and there is a reason Moses is told by Shuaib that he will pay his due and not fall short of it and be good to him and that is important.

The inequity of others or of this century is not capable of justifying the inequity of magic book or it's century.  

Quote:When a person works, they deserve a due. And this was a lesson, you are freeing Israelites slave to today, only to prepare them for Mohammad who will free all of humanity from the shackles the dark one seeks to put on them and while it is literally slavery today, don't forget about the economics slaves who are not paid their due effort.

Big Mo's magic book didn't free anyone from shackles, it tells you to put little girls in them, buy and sell them, and fuck them - and that's exactly what the caliphate did.

You first claimed you could justify this. You couldn't. You then attempted to romanticize it, but failed. Now you're driving in the opposite direction at 90 miles an hour yelling "other people do bad shit too" over your shoulder as you put ground between yourself and your own horrid fairy tale. You knew this would happen. You knew it going in. You knew you couldn't justify it or romanticize it, and you knew you didn't agree with magic book on this issue.

-and yet..here we are. Why? Just...fucking.....why.................?

(March 31, 2018 at 12:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Whether you acknowledge it or not, the ancients had our sense of compassion and justice, and this how they dealt with war. This how they deterred war, they made consequences for it. 
Otherwise, no one would care for peace, the worst thing that can happen if it were not for spoils of war, is you change rulers, and that is no big deal.

You talk about compassion, but a lot of the verses in the Qur'an don't come off as very compassionate.

And sure, the ancients had compassion and justice and all that, but for whom? Certainly not the poor people they waged war against, and definitely not for those taken in as slaves to be treated as subhuman. We know from history and from observing today's world that such atrocities have, and still, happen(ed). And if there were a compassionate god out there, I would argue that we would be in a far better world than we are in now, one with far less suffering and far more compassion for others. But we don't live in that world, we live here instead. So I don't see the odds of such a god existing to be anywhere close to good.