Usually when we pinpoint to violent verses in Quran we hear Atlass defending it that violence is only for defense, like this



Then again what exactly constitutes "corruption" or "waging war against Allah and His Messenger"? It varies according to perspective. There is no doubt that a large number of Muslims see the drawing of cartoons of their prophet as an act of war.
Seeing that U.S. bombs have fallen in seven Muslim-majority countries in just a decade leads Atlass (AKA moderate Muslim) in these countries to believe the United States is "waging war" in their lands and therefore hold its government and the population that elected it into office responsible.
Also vocally apostasizing and writing articles, books, or even Facebook posts criticizing Islamic doctrine and promoting atheism are widely seen as "spreading corruption."
And the Islamic State, which strictly follows ahadith that prescribe brutal punishments for blasphemers and homosexuals, clearly sees blasphemy and homosexuality as corrupt and sinful.
If "spreading corruption" is punishable by execution and/or crucifixion, imagine the number of "crimes" that might fall into this broad category.

Just as Atlass uses verse 5:32 to legitimately support his argument that Allah frowns on killing people, ISIS uses the very next verse, 5:33, to legitimately support murdering thousands.

Like most religious texts, I can only assume God deliberately makes the message confused and contradictory, to see which of us gets it "right". What a pathetic being this would be.

Okay sooooo... I got more.

If, for some reason, I really believed the Quran was written by God, I'd discard it in disgust.

If instead I lost my humanity and decided to do what this book told me to do (after dealing with the mental gymnastics of why an all-powerful God would need my help), I'd probably be a violent jihadi. The book easily supports their position way better than the peaceful ones.

Atlas appears to be saying jihadists should be embarrassed for having taken a wrong turn in the lab maze, rather than for murdering people based on what a story book says.

(July 18, 2018 at 6:50 am)robvalue Wrote: I think I've figured it out now. I was giving the Allah character too much credit. It's not trying to stop people killing each other by writing "peaceful" passages in a book, it's just seeing whether people will follow its instructions or not. We're lab rats, essentially. This is an even worse character than before, showing zero regard for us, and expecting life to be no more than a game for us at best.

There's not really much I can say about such a situation, other than doing what it says because it tells you to is a total abandonment of all autonomy and moral courage.

---

PS: I don't know why jihadists should be embarrassed, since they are following what they think Allah is telling them to do. In this scenario, I should be more embarrassed, because I'm ignoring everything Allah says.

It's a test, following the Islamic tradition this is not the life we are supposed to live and prosper in; rather it's a test.
Failing to see and believe in this truth is one of the reasons for damnation in hell in the afterlife:

Quote:Sura 10, The Quran:

( 7 )   Indeed, those who do not expect the meeting with Us and are satisfied with the life of this world and feel secure therein and those who are heedless of Our signs
( 8 )   For those their refuge will be the Fire because of what they used to earn.
( 9 )   Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - their Lord will guide them because of their faith. Beneath them rivers will flow in the Gardens of Pleasure

Life is not fair, while some are born healthy some are born sick, while some are born wealthy some are born poor, while some are born in battlefields some are born in luxurious cities.
Life is not fair, and again failing to see that is a cause of damnation; since not seeing that is the cause history always repeats itself.

This life is a test to prove who is worthy of paradise. Because we have free will and because we can choose, our fathers (Adam and Eve) sinned. So we were sent to this cruel test to prove our selves.

Many Jihadists are Arabic speakers, they have the language of the Quran natively, they also live in Islamic communities, yet they didn't see the truth. While you are an English speaker, born in the west, from western roots. Your ancestors were not given the Quran like Arabs.

(July 18, 2018 at 8:40 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: It's a test, following the Islamic tradition this is not the life we are supposed to live and prosper in; rather it's a test.
Failing to see and believe in this truth is one of the reasons for damnation in hell in the afterlife:

Exactly how I test my own children.  If my son fails to play rachmaninoff suitably...I slam his hands with the piano cover over and over for all eternity.  

lol.

Quote:Life is not fair, while some are born healthy some are born sick, while some are born wealthy some are born poor, while some are born in battlefields some are born in luxurious cities.
Life is not fair, and again failing to see that is a cause of damnation; since not seeing that is the cause history always repeats itself.

This life is a test to prove who is worthy of paradise. Because we have free will and because we can choose, our fathers (Adam and Eve) sinned. So we were sent to this cruel test to prove our selves.

Many Jihadists are Arabic speakers, they have the language of the Quran natively, they also live in Islamic communities, yet they didn't see the truth. While you are an English speaker, born in the west, from western roots. Your ancestors were not given the Quran like Arabs.

You;re only telling me that allah plays favorites, and happens to be the kind of fella that would slam a kids hands in the piano cover even if he were born with no natural talent for the piano. Why would I want to have anything to do with a prick like that? Why would you?

If you need a book to tell you not to kill people, you're probably a psychopath or addled with religious indoctrination.

If you kill people because a book says so, you're also probably a psychopath or addled with religious indoctrination.

(July 18, 2018 at 7:11 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Then again what exactly constitutes "corruption" or "waging war against Allah and His Messenger"?

Quote:corruption
kəˈrʌpʃ(ə)n/
noun
noun: corruption; plural noun: corruptions

1. 1.
   dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.
   "the journalist who wants to expose corruption in high places"
   synonyms:
   dishonesty, dishonest dealings, unscrupulousness, deceit, deception, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, lawbreaking, crime, criminality, delinquency, wrongdoing, villainy; More
   bribery, bribing, subornation, venality, graft, extortion, jobbery, profiteering;
   payola;
   informalcrookedness, shadiness, sleaze, palm-greasing;
   malfeasance, misfeasance;
   archaicknavery;
   raremalversation
   "senior officials have been implicated in corruption"
   
   
   antonyms:
   honesty
   • the action or effect of making someone or something morally depraved.
     "the corruption of youth was a powerful motif"
     synonyms:
     sin, sinfulness, ungodliness, unrighteousness, profanity, impiety, impurity; More
     immorality, depravity, vice, iniquity, turpitude, degeneracy, perversion, pervertedness, debauchery, dissolution, dissoluteness, decadence, profligacy, wantonness, indecency, lasciviousness, lewdness, lechery;
     wickedness, evil, baseness, vileness
     "he is aware of his fall into corruption"
     
     
     antonyms:
     morality, purity
     
2. 2.
   the process by which a word or expression is changed from its original state to one regarded as erroneous or debased.
   "a record of a word's corruption"
   synonyms:
   alteration, falsification, doctoring, manipulation, manipulating, fudging, adulteration, debasement, degradation, abuse, subversion, misrepresentation, misapplication;
   rarevitiation
   "these figures have been subject to corruption"
   
   

So your argument against what I said, is to question what the word "corruption" means?

I think the word is very understandable. And linguistic experts from every language in the world know exactly what this word means, so we know exactly who is causing "corruption" and who isn't. Let's take banks and their hellish lending policies as a basic example for corruption in earth.

If you want to wage war against Allah; attack the fundamental laws this religion came to spread -prohibition of killing,murder,robbing,rape...and with fighting that you are fighting what Allah prohibited; with that you are fighting Allah-.

Quote:Seeing that U.S. bombs have fallen in seven Muslim-majority countries in just a decade leads Atlass (AKA moderate Muslim) in these countries to believe the United States is "waging war" in their lands and therefore hold its government and the population that elected it into office responsible.

False accusation thrown by a bankrupted intellect.

First  of all, the U.S people are something, and their government is something else. The U.S government; on the other hand, have been practicing terrorism since WW2, and is involved explicitly in cases of mass murder, and currently threatens the whole world through the electing of an idiot as a president.

The U.S doesn't need Islam to be condemned; any sane person would condemn it without even thinking. It lost its soul since the attacks on Japan in WW2, it's a godless regime that stops at nothing to achieve its political goals. Believe me even communist atheists from South America, Soviet Russians, Communist Chinese, all have agreed on the same and saw the same from this country.

Second; I say "the American regime". How dare you say that I generalize on the American people?

Quote:Also vocally apostasizing and writing articles, books, or even Facebook posts criticizing Islamic doctrine and promoting atheism are widely seen as "spreading corruption."

The Muslims who do this are ignoring the Quran, the whole Quran doesn't contain a single verse that orders Muslims to shut people who talk about their religion or God up, instead it orders them to forgive or repay the treatment -eye for an eye-, preferring forgiveness:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 108 )   And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.

and

Quote:Sura 16, The Quran:
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 125 )   Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

( 126 )   And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient - it is better for those who are patient.

( 127 )   And be patient, [O Muhammad], and your patience is not but through Allah. And do not grieve over them and do not be in distress over what they conspire.

So please; show these verses to the Muslims you talk about because they IDK frankly what religion do they follow.

Quote:And the Islamic State, which strictly follows ahadith that prescribe brutal punishments for blasphemers and homosexuals, clearly sees blasphemy and homosexuality as corrupt and sinful.
If "spreading corruption" is punishable by execution and/or crucifixion, imagine the number of "crimes" that might fall into this broad category.

Just as Atlass uses verse 5:32 to legitimately support his argument that Allah frowns on killing people, ISIS uses the very next verse, 5:33, to legitimately support murdering thousands.

I said so many times that the Hadiths are not to be trusted and that the Sunni/Shiite religions are following the wrong path for years, but yet you hold me responsible for the crimes of people I do not know.
If you want to bash ISIS, don't bash me. Bash ISIS warriors, you can find them in many places and I leave the search to you.

It's the Atlas all apologetics show -- all bullshit, all the time!

(July 20, 2018 at 12:37 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: So your argument against what I said, is to question what the word "corruption" means?

I think the word is very understandable. And linguistic experts from every language in the world know exactly what this word means, so we know exactly who is causing "corruption" and who isn't. Let's take banks and their hellish lending policies as a basic example for corruption in earth.

A wonderful example of how the verses in question are used to manufacture pretext for war.  You feel empowered to do so like a common mullah, and it suggests action.  We decide, for whatever reason™....that some person or organization is corrupt...and voila, they are attacking the integrity of the islamic order, nay...nay , attacking allah himself!  

Next thing you know, you hear three clicks then see the light.   

Quote:The U.S doesn't need Islam to be condemned; any sane person would condemn it without even thinking. It lost its soul since the attacks on Japan in WW2, it's a godless regime that stops at nothing to achieve its political goals. Believe me even communist atheists from South America, Soviet Russians, Communist Chinese, all have agreed on the same and saw the same from this country.

Soviet satellites would say that, though... wouldn;t they.....