I won't deny that it has been used in the past to show blacks in a negative light, but was it always intendet to be so? Could it be that in some cases it wasn't actually insulting?
Let's take Tom and Jerry for instance. They did a lot of blackface jokes, but they were ususally short. It was usually one or more characters (which are animals) getting something black on their face(s) and they get the now infamous black face. I was little when I first saw a character from Tom and Jerry getting a black face, that was Jerry. Keep in mind, I didn't know at that time that blackface was a practice. At first I didn't know what he was supposed to be. I asked dad and he told me Jerry looks like a black. I thought the joke was because he got covered in black his race changed, even though he's a mouse, and his lips turned red after being covered black. I thought the result (looking like a black) was supposed to be funny only in this context, NOT ridiculous in it on itself. Now as an adult looking at these jokes I know they reference blackfaces, but my opinion about them hasn't chanced much. Now I see it as "because they got covered in black they have black faces, even though they're animals and their lips would in reality be black as well instead of red or pink". Are those jokes about race, or about blackfacing itself?
There was the episode "His mouse Friday", where they undoubtfully show actual blacks with blackfaces, however, that's it. Those characters appear only at the end and are used for a joke about wanting to cook the main characters. Tribes of blacks who hunt actually existed and they actually hunted. Sure, they didn't hunt cats and mice, but if the joke is about practices, then it's about culture, not about race. They did look ridiculous, but most cartoon characters do. Did the creators draw them this way, beacuse they see blacks as inferior or because they just wished to do some visual humour, like so many cartoon characters designs are supposed to be? Why isn't anyone complaining about Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam being offensive to midgets? Or Olive Oil to skinny women? 
Another complaint is about the funny, sweet, chocolate mama that is also the owner of Tom. If you think that blackfaces are offensive, don't worry about her, we don't get to see it. The only time it was shown, she looked human. Her lips were red, but probably due to lipstick. She was also the owner of the house, outspoken, strong and had shown a caring side. Of course she had an accent, but there are people in real life who do. They deserve representation as well, and they can be just as funny and serious as other human beings. When I looked at her I saw an interesting, funny and black character, because she was written as such.

Vintage Cartoon Blackface

You can get away with black-face, as long as you're a XIX-th century chimney sweep...

(April 19, 2019 at 6:00 am)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: I won't deny that it has been used in the past to show blacks in a negative light, but was it always intendet to be so? Could it be that in some cases it wasn't actually insulting?
Let's take Tom and Jerry for instance. They did a lot of blackface jokes, but they were ususally short. It was usually one or more characters (which are animals) getting something black on their face(s) and they get the now infamous black face. I was little when I first saw a character from Tom and Jerry getting a black face, that was Jerry. Keep in mind, I didn't know at that time that blackface was a practice. At first I didn't know what he was supposed to be. I asked dad and he told me Jerry looks like a black. I thought the joke was because he got covered in black his race changed, even though he's a mouse, and his lips turned red after being covered black. I thought the result (looking like a black) was supposed to be funny only in this context, NOT ridiculous in it on itself. Now as an adult looking at these jokes I know they reference blackfaces, but my opinion about them hasn't chanced much. Now I see it as "because they got covered in black they have black faces, even though they're animals and their lips would in reality be black as well instead of red or pink". Are those jokes about race, or about blackfacing itself?
There was the episode "His mouse Friday", where they undoubtfully show actual blacks with blackfaces, however, that's it. Those characters appear only at the end and are used for a joke about wanting to cook the main characters. Tribes of blacks who hunt actually existed and they actually hunted. Sure, they didn't hunt cats and mice, but if the joke is about practices, then it's about culture, not about race. They did look ridiculous, but most cartoon characters do. Did the creators draw them this way, beacuse they see blacks as inferior or because they just wished to do some visual humour, like so many cartoon characters designs are supposed to be? Why isn't anyone complaining about Elmer Fudd and Yosemite Sam being offensive to midgets? Or Olive Oil to skinny women? 
Another complaint is about the funny, sweet, chocolate mama that is also the owner of Tom. If you think that blackfaces are offensive, don't worry about her, we don't get to see it. The only time it was shown, she looked human. Her lips were red, but probably due to lipstick. She was also the owner of the house, outspoken, strong and had shown a caring side. Of course she had an accent, but there are people in real life who do. They deserve representation as well, and they can be just as funny and serious as other human beings. When I looked at her I saw an interesting, funny and black character, because she was written as such.

Characters like Elmer Fud, Yosemite Sam and Olive Oil were not written with the intent of making fun of entire groups of people and society back when those characters were invented did not view it as making fun of whites as an entire group. Nor were whites slaves for 400 years.

Quote:Is blackface always offensive?

Yes.

Boru

It depends on two things.

Who you are, and how thin your skin is.

I think the weaponisation of "being offended" has been poisonous to our cultures. We’re descending into a joyless, thought-policed, snowflakey society. This has a lot to do with the kind of SJW/feminist shit that is apparently being taught in schools and universities now.

(April 19, 2019 at 8:44 am)robvalue Wrote: I think the weaponisation of "being offended" has been poisonous to our cultures. We’re descending into a joyless, thought-policed, snowflakey society. This has a lot to do with the kind of SJW/feminist shit that is apparently being taught in schools and universities now.

There is such a thing as "intent" and shows like South Park and Dave Shapelle and Family Guy do poke fun of everyone, but the intent isn't to promote bigotry.

But that is not the same as speech that promotes hate, violence and oppressive policy.

I am very critical and blasphemous of lots of things, and nobody has a right to be free from being offended. But again, there is a huge difference between blasphemy and the sell of institutionalized fear of others.

(April 19, 2019 at 8:44 am)robvalue Wrote: I think the weaponisation of "being offended" has been poisonous to our cultures. We’re descending into a joyless, thought-policed, snowflakey society. This has a lot to do with the kind of SJW/feminist shit that is apparently being taught in schools and universities now.

I think it's more complicated than that, and I think the crowd you're listening to is being laughably overdramatic. What you're seeing happen, in real time, is the most racially diverse generation, that also has the best understanding of social media and other internet outlets, speaking their minds and being honest about what they think societal norms should be. Is it a shock that such a diverse and open-minded generation of Americans are sick of humor that is offensive to minorities? Before now they didn't exactly have the power or backing of their peers to say much about it. If this is your response to the use of blackface then I'm not really sure where you go from here. There are plenty of insensitive jokes that are on the border of being offensive, and we can debate whether it's fair to stifle those things, but blackface for humor is pretty obviously racist.

I concede there is a decent-sized sect of young liberals with tolerance issues, and I think there is an odd liberal brand of racism where white people rush to minorities' defense like their babies, and that level of "white guilt" is not very attractive nor is it generally welcome by people I've spoken with. But I also don't think a desire for political correctness is something that is suddenly unique to this generation's young people and I don't think it's NEARLY, NEARLY as big of a problem as people make it out to be. I'm in an interracial relationship, and the barriers my girlfriend has faced are things I could never dream of. When you're not white, it colors people's perception of you. You're always noticed, always under a microscope. The two of us are judged constantly in public, and I grew up in a liberal area. White majority, but supposedly liberal. Society seems to actively work against them, over and over again. There's an entire psychology exclusive to people in that position that you and I could never imagine. And when you feel so downtrodden, and you feel as though your life is worse off because of other's perception of you... of course you're not going to like it when those same people who you see as blocking you from something based on the color of your skin also make fun of you. Duh. I mean, try to empathize for a second.

The crowd you hang with sound like nutjobs to me. Like I said, I see your point, but your mistake is exaggerating the shit out of it. Is it really asking that much not to paint your damn face black? Is it really causing us to devolve into a joyless society? Give me a break.

Edit: And for the record, my girlfriend and I make satirical comments and insensitive jokes about each other's race all the time. It's about context, and your personal understanding of their unique position.

Looks like we've got another one headed down the alt right rabbit hole.  Might not enjoy the view from the bottom.  : shrugs :