Let me preface to filter out some folks. I find every facet of Trump repulsive and his supporters/cult as equally or even more so repulsive.

Now I've been in a political blackout for a very long time, So maybe someone can fill me in. Won't Senate will kill this in about 2 minutes or am I missing something?

There is a lot of nuance with this. The truth is, we have the words that the chump® spoke, verbatim, and he even admits that he said them. But he claims that they didn't mean what the rest of the world would take them to mean (except, of course all those Republicans who support him). It's like every other lie he's ever told and didn't have to own up to, because he had money. Now that the money means dick, since he's held responsible for his actions (oh, shit!, for him), he'll be impeached for what he's done. The irony is that he's done so much other damage to the US by putting people who know nothing about the positions they have been appointed to, that the impeachment seems like a joke. If you haven't read the book, "Animal Farm", by George Orwell, pick up a copy. It's all in there- the double-speak, etc.

What amuses me about the entire hearing so far, is that the republicans talk about a democrat smear campaign, etc., but most of the people testifying to what he said are republicans who worked in his administration.

(December 5, 2019 at 10:08 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Let me preface to filter out some folks. I find every facet of Trump repulsive and his supporters/cult as equally or even more so repulsive.

Now I've been in a political blackout for a very long time, So maybe someone can fill me in. Won't Senate will kill this in about 2 minutes or am I missing something?

Without going into any particulars about the substance of the accusations, your assumptions about what will happen are exactly right. So you really have not missed anything by checking out from politics for a very long time.

Trump has taught me volumes about friends, and family that I thought I knew so well, only to find that I don't know or understand them at all.

The same asshats impeaching Trump are advocating withholding financial aid to Israel unless they toe the line regarding the Palestinians. Even if 'quid pro quo' is proven, how is it impeachable unless a double standard is adopted? This of course ignores Biden's admitted success in doing the exact same thing as VP that Trump is now accused of.

How do you reason that a guy with a shitload of money is influenced by more of it? The same guy that is on record giving away his salary.

You also opined that Trump is damaging the US. I didn't see Trudeau's or Macron's face superimposed on Rocky's body on posters in Hong Kong.

By the way, double speak was an idea in '1984', not 'Animal Farm'.

The "quid pro quo" was trying to get election interference for military aid, a personal favor...to say the least. Above, you describe a situation in which one nation asks another something in return for help that benefits the national interest. These aren't even in the same wheelhouse, so no, no double standard is required. Just the usual one, as described by our laws..which the president has broken, lied about, and tried to cover up.

The presidential salary is peanuts, and worth nothing compared to the perks of presidency, or the perks of saddling our government with your ill-bred spawn, inlaws, and hangers-on.

Yes, the president has damaged the US. Getting rid of him will not undo the damage, but it will prevent him from causing more. What posters in hong kong have to do with that...I can't even begin to say.

: shrugs :

Yes, it's expected to die along partisan lines OP. Sometimes people just won't do their jobs, but that's never a good reason for another person to quit doing theirs. I think that it's a shame that it had to come to this...and that this is what it's come to. President crime spree has been doing impeachable things since he took office. The lesson appears to be that you can shit on the rule of law, build concentration camps, and grift the ever living fuck out of the government as long as you don't try to extort the president of Ukraine.

The issue is that, IIRC, a lot of the issue with Trump doing the quid pro quo is that, in the cases Cato is talking about, the "quo" is convincing the nations at hand to play nice and stay within the preferred standards of human rights. The key difference in Trump's case is that the "quo" is compromising material on Joe Biden that Trump wants to use to gain an upper hand in the 2020 election, in essence, personal gain. And this is compounded by the results of the Muller report, which, while they failed to prove that Trump personally colluded in Russia's interfence in 2016, there's enough circumstantial evidence that the Dems will pounce on a repeat happening in real time.

That said, the impeachment is risky, as it hinges on the assumption that the Republicans controlling the Senate would give a shit about the rule of law, and wouldn't work to protect him even if he did this:



There is historical precedent that supports this, like how the Republicans started to support impeachment after Nixon became an obvious crook, but how much this applies to Trump remains to be seen.

The mueller report did not fail to establish that russia interfered in 2016. Trump didn't want compromising material, he wanted investigations announced.

The mueller report failed to establish that the trump admin coordinated with russia. Possibly due, according to the report, to the fact that they destroyed communications and records...and also just might have been too dumb to knowingly conspire. As far as material, anyone who wants it can go pick it up directly from the kremlin - because that's all the material there is to be had.

(December 6, 2019 at 1:52 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: The mueller report did not fail to establish that russia interfered in 2016.  Trump didn't want compromising material, he wanted investigations announced.  

The mueller report failed to establish that the trump admin coordinated with russia.  Possibly due, according to the report, to the fact that they destroyed communications and records...and also just might have been too dumb to knowingly conspire.  As far as material, anyone who wants it can go pick it up directly from the kremlin - because that's all the material there is to be had.

Noted. I have changed my wording to clarify the facts on Russia with this information in mind, and that the failure to prove anything was about Trump's involvement and not Russia's interference.

Bolga,

What damage? Seriously, the claim has been made that Trump has damaged the US, but I have yet to be given an example. The Hong Kong reference was given specifically to illustrate that a group of people still look to the US as the embodiment of individual rights and freedom. The fact that you don't get this or willfully ignore it is telling.

There's all this talk of how Trump is destroying democracy, but a vast majority of the democratic presidential candidates are promising unilateral provisions for free healthcare, student loan relief, gun confiscation, dismantling of the electoral college, etc. al.; unilateral authoritarian measures while proclaiming the sitting president is an authoritarian. This makes zero fucking sense.

I didn't vote for Trump or Clinton. I would love to vote for someone besides Trump, but what fucking choice am I being given? The only democrat that I will even consider voting for right now is Tulsi Gabbard, but she won't get the nomination.

This impeachment has absolutely no bipartisan support, unlike that for Johnson, Nixon and Clinton; and none of them were convicted and removed from office (Nixon resigned). Wait until it goes to trial in the Senate and see what gets opened to investigation that should have been dealt with in the House. It's going to be a shit show for Democrats. The result will be a Trump landslide, a solid GOP majority in the Senate and the House will get flipped. I have a hard time believing that Pelosi and Schumer are holding something back that is incriminating enough to change current opinion; meaning it can only get worse politically for the Democrats.