(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You denied its mentioned in your holy book.

And it's true. Did you find any verse (not hadith, verse) mentioning apostasy? Isn't it time to admit you didn't really take the time to check whether there is one?

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(December 17, 2019 at 8:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote: Where the fuck did I deny apostasy man?

You denied that a majority of muslims thinks it should be punished (preferably by death). You ignored me explaining that some of the most renowed scholars and schools of Islam agree with this.

I denied that most Muslims believe apostasy is in the Qur'an, I ignored your explanations because you were like repeating kindergarten stuff, instead of addressing the core issue, which is that apostasy is a political status and not a mere change of belief, and that only a court of law can determine that.

The standard for apostasy was traditionally set so high that no verdict was passed before the 11th century, do you seriously think nobody left Islam in that time ?

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: And we are there already. You being ok with killing people for apostasy.

I am not ok with anyone being killed, it's just your pathetic understanding of how we deal with these texts that makes you think we mindlessly murder people.

That's why we have scholars, not everybody can understand how the texts are applied.

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: And the difference/distance between me not believing and a former muslim not believing is.....how many miles?

Millions and millions of miles.
Apostasy was there and nobody was killed because of it for four fucking centuries, is that evidence enough for you that it's almost never applied because of its almost impossible conditions?
Recently(from 1985 to 2006) four individuals were executed for apostasy by three governments. Are you naive enough to think that a mere 4 people in the whole Middle East left islam during all this period?

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Sure, you arent. You are ok with killing apostates, as soon as some *Islamic jurisprudence* tells you its ok, as you just fucking said above. Its also noted that you seem not to give a shit about jurisprudence which is not religious.

Really?

First, if jurisprudence is not religious, there is no apostasy applied. Second, you should look at some simple statistics of *how frequently* apostasy is applied instead of mentioning big words like Islamic jurisprudence you can barely spell correctly, or bending holy texts you aren't qualified to make any inferences from them at all.

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(December 17, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: What else do you call a 10 year old girl?

A child is biologically between birth and puberty, Aisha reportedly reached puberty at the age of 9.

Meanwhile we find Tennessee ( an American state mind you, not a Saudi one ) 10-year-old girls get married in 2001. This happens right now in your country and you allow yourself to judge a marriage that happened 14 centuries ago? Seriously?

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(December 18, 2019 at 11:10 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Islam is not for decent people, like:

“Men are the maintainers of women, because Allah has made some of them to excel others...” (4:34)

Any healthy woman should vomit here. Women (and decent men!) need stand up against the blatant misogyny within Islam.

Just an example off the top of my head, women were not allowed to pursue graduate studies in Princeton until at least 1960. Islam wouldn't have condoned that.

Healthy women have more reasons to vomit at the imaginary gender equality you preach in your country , than to a verse who instructs to treat them differently (because they biologically differ from men , a tautology you strangely can't wrap your head around ).

Quote:Klorophyll

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You denied its mentioned in your holy book.

And it's true. Did you find any verse (not hadith, verse) mentioning apostasy? Isn't it time to admit you didn't really take the time to check whether there is one?

Wait..
Didn't you say yourself:

Quote:Klorophyll Wrote:
Again, I deny the existence of a verse who mentions apostasy. I know it's enforced and I know it's there in the Islamic jurisprudence based on an authentic hadith.

And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

....Mystic Fart..Do you realize that with the above sentence:

1-You claimed that ALL MUSLIMS believe in your ISIS/Hezbollah mentality ? I mean some Muslims -like me- spit on your extremism and threaten you to keep your knives and bombs home ! in other words, baba, we don't believe in what you believe..your Hadith is an obsolete for us ! why join any Muslim forcefully on the same drowning boat you're in?

2-,,,,your court can lick my boot..you extremist piece of shit.

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(December 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 17, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: What else do you call a 10 year old girl?

A child is biologically between birth and puberty, Aisha reportedly reached puberty at the age of 9.

So your best argument is that it wasn't technically pedophilia? Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed? How could your "god" have failed to mention to Mo to not screw 10 year-olds?

Quote:Meanwhile we find Tennessee ( an American state mind you, not a Saudi one ) 10-year-old girls get married in 2001.

And that's disgusting.

Quote:This happens right now in your country and you allow yourself to judge a marriage that happened 14 centuries ago? Seriously?

Yup. Aside from the fact that it isn't my country, which matters little enough, it's just plain wrong. It's wrong mow in Tennessee and it was wrong 14 centuries ago. If your "prophet" didn't know morality that applies to the 21st century then what's the good of him?

(December 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You denied its mentioned in your holy book.

And it's true. Did you find any verse (not hadith, verse) mentioning apostasy? Isn't it time to admit you didn't really take the time to check whether there is one?

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You denied that a majority of muslims thinks it should be punished (preferably by death). You ignored me explaining that some of the most renowed scholars and schools of Islam agree with this.

I denied that most Muslims believe apostasy is in the Qur'an, I ignored your explanations because you were like repeating kindergarten stuff, instead of addressing the core issue, which is that apostasy is a political status and not a mere change of belief, and that only a court of law can determine that.

Apostasy in the Quran...

3:90
4:91
9:66
16:106

Fuck off with your lies.

(December 18, 2019 at 6:18 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Apostasy in the Quran...

3:90
4:91
9:66
16:106

Fuck off with your lies.

First I would like to thank you for the F word, summarizes the kind of high-quality morality system atheists came up with after leaving religion.

Now let's read together the verses you cited:

3:90 : Indeed, those who reject the message after their belief and then increase in disbelief - never will their [claimed] repentance be accepted, and they are the ones astray.

Where is killing in the verse? Is Astray synonymous to murder apostates in some dictionary in your attic?

4:91 : You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

The verse specifically says " if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands" which means they are enemy combatants. Apostates huh?

9:66 : Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon one faction of you - We will punish another faction because they were criminals.

We will punish refers to God. Where are the apostates being executed in the verse? Did you imagine them?

16:106 : Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah, and for them is a great punishment;

Great punishment is divine punishment according to all the tafsirs out there.

And there you go, proof that you are a misinformed, dishonest and pathetic liar.

(December 18, 2019 at 6:09 pm)Paleophyte Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: A child is biologically between birth and puberty, Aisha reportedly reached puberty at the age of 9.

So your best argument is that it wasn't technically pedophilia? Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed? How could your "god" have failed to mention to Mo to not screw 10 year-olds?

Aisha consented to the marriage, she wasn't a child, what else do you need to stop this outdated presentism fallacy? Did she need your consent or what?

Even Muhammad's most sworn enemies didn't see his marriage as some moral deficiency they can take advantage of to undermine his prophecy claims.

(December 18, 2019 at 6:09 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: If your "prophet" didn't know morality that applies to the 21st century then what's the good of him?

What makes you think the 21st century morality - which is an implicit admission that you are a moral relativist, hence your right to even object evaporates into thin air - is the gold standard against which we get to measure anything done in the past?

Quote:What makes you think the 21st century morality - which is an implicit admission that you are a moral relativist, hence your right to even object evaporates into thin air - is the gold standard against which we get to measure anything done in the past?

Lol he irony of his statement is hilarious

(December 18, 2019 at 6:33 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 18, 2019 at 6:18 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Apostasy in the Quran...

3:90
4:91
9:66
16:106

Fuck off with your lies.

First I would like to thank you for the F word, summarizes the kind of high-quality morality system atheists came up with after leaving religion.

Now let's read together the verses you cited:

3:90 : Indeed, those who reject the message after their belief and then increase in disbelief - never will their [claimed] repentance be accepted, and they are the ones astray.

Where is killing in the verse? Astray means murder apostates in some dictionary in your attic?

4:91 : You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.

The verse specifically says " if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands" which means they are enemy combatants. Apostates huh?

9:66 : Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon one faction of you - We will punish another faction because they were criminals.

We will punish refers to God. Where are the apostates being executed in the verse? Did you imagine them?

16:106 : Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah, and for them is a great punishment;

Great punishment is divine punishment according to all the tafsirs out there.

And there you go, proof that you are a misinformed, dishonest and pathetic liar.

(December 18, 2019 at 6:09 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: So your best argument is that it wasn't technically pedophilia? Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed? How could your "god" have failed to mention to Mo to not screw 10 year-olds?

Aisha consented to the marriage, she wasn't child, what else do you need to stop this outdated presentism fallacy?

Even Muhammad's most sworn enemies didn't see his marriage as some moral deficiency they can take advantage of to undermine his prophecy claims.

(December 18, 2019 at 6:09 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: If your "prophet" didn't know morality that applies to the 21st century then what's the good of him?

What makes you think the 21st century morality - which is an implicit admission that you are a moral relativist, hence your right to even object evaporates into thin air - is the gold standard against which we get to measure anything done in the past?

Watch out from this troll.
He is copycatting posts as old as 2015

https://atheistforums.org/thread-36595.h...2CApostasy

He's stalking old posts of mine.
He's copycatting my opinions and showing a very creepy behavior

The moderators can check our identities to make sure

(December 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: And we are there already. You being ok with killing people for apostasy.

I am not ok with anyone being killed,

Well, what did i just say?:

(December 17, 2019 at 11:29 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You know you are lying, i know it and everyone else knows it. So why are you going to embarass yourself by forcing me to give examples? Do you really think your method of flat out denying of what you just openly stated (like you did just above) is gonna work here? Please stop insulting my intellect.

And here you go, lying your sorry ass off, again.

Because you were ok with killing apostates, you said it, plain and clear:

(December 17, 2019 at 8:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote: And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

(December 17, 2019 at 8:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote: apostasy is a political status and not a mere change of belief,

Lying again, or just being ignorant?

Merriam Webster Wrote:Apostasy: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

But in any case it is duly noted you are ok with killing people after "giving them a political status" in your sick and twisted version of reality.

(December 17, 2019 at 8:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote: Healthy women have more reasons to vomit at the imaginary gender equality you preach in your country , than to a verse who instructs to treat them differently (because they biologically differ from men , a tautology you strangely can't wrap your head around ).

Aaand you are lying again. Women arent treated differently, they are treated as lesser people, at best.
Women are second class citizens....at best. They can only inherit half of what a man can inherit, and their testimony in court also counts only half of that of a man.
Disgusting, your lies, and the immorality you are defending. Just flat out despicable.

Quote:Aisha consented to the marriage, 

A 9 yeas old lack he capacity to consent 

Quote:she wasn't child,

Was already addressed technically not being a pedo is a poor defense 

Quote: what else do you need to stop this outdated presentism fallacy?

Nope no fallacy if your claiming objective morality oh and spelled  present ism

Quote:Even Muhammad's most sworn enemies didn't see his marriage as some moral deficiency they can take advantage of to undermine his prophecy claims.

Because someones enemies don't have an issue with him plowing  a ten year old means less then nothing

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Quote:Healthy women have more reasons to vomit at the imaginary gender equality you preach in your country , than to a verse who instructs to treat them differently (because they biologically differ from men , a tautology you strangely can't wrap your head around ).

Lol no mentally healthy women accepts your barbaric backward views on women .Only women who have brainwashed to believe they should be treated  like second class citizens .

(December 18, 2019 at 6:50 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Lying again, or just being ignorant?

Merriam Webster Wrote:Apostasy: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

But in any case it is duly noted you are ok with killing people after "giving them a political status" in your sick and twisted version of reality.

Do you think fucking Merriam Webster will define accurately such a complicated judicial concept belonging to eastern tradition ?
Apostasy here is defined generally, not in the particular Islamic case. You are just being grossly dishonest here. Did you think about the statistics I mentioned?

(December 18, 2019 at 6:50 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Aaand you are lying again. Women arent treated differently, they are treated as lesser people, at best.
Women are second class citizens....at best. They can only inherit half of what a man can inherit, and their testimony in court also counts only half of that of a man.
Disgusting, your lies, and the immorality you are defending. Just flat out despicable.

I don't expect from dishonest misinformed people like yourself to grasp the critical nuances - you pretend don't exist - of applying this penalty. And leave women alone, they can come here and complain about it themselves, I expect them to be more informed about the matter and less inclined to repeating stereotypes.