(March 28, 2020 at 7:20 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 28, 2020 at 5:26 am)WinterHold Wrote: A place where the true meanings of the Quran are practiced -under a mass voting on the meanings- is what I seek.Just like in the times of Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him.

Not a totalitarian dictatorship like the Ottoman empire.

That seems perfectly clear. 

You're a dreamer, of course. It's not likely to happen any time soon. But I don't see how dreaming of free and fair elections among Muslims, in order to establish a peaceful government, could be opposed by any reasonable person. 

The US doesn't have free and fair elections any more, so it's an ideal we can all share.

In my opinion, having fair and democratic elections to decide what the majority of Muslims think about the meanings of the Quran is the "only way" to stop any civil war between sects and allow for the opinion of the majority to rule the Umma.
That way, you won't have a rouge group going alone -like ISIS- to establish a caliphate of its own; automatically it will be a mere outlaw gang.
But this opinion is kept getting demolished by the imperial powers that take advantage of Muslim division: they -the imperials- never want us Muslims united because that would signal the doom of their easy-to-get natural resources that come from Muslim dominated areas.
Why do Americans have the right to have elections, but we Muslims don't?
And instead on focusing on this line of thought; ISIS-like thought is the one advocated?

Quote:Mr. Greene is advocating violence, which is exactly the kind of thing he accuses others of doing. But the imperial powers have been using exactly that kind of violence for centuries and it doesn't seem to be making things better. We all know that the slave markets opened in Libya -- after a long time of being closed -- only after Obama/Clinton used violence to take out the government there. 

Someday I would like to understand why people get so passionately worked up about a huge and diverse group of people [e.g. Muslims] to the point that they will advocate widespread violence on a public forum. It doesn't make sense to me.

Not just violence, but historical hypocrisy too, as if he didn't see the terrible torture machines European imperials made, or their emptying of whole two continents from their native people, or their early use of biologic attacks, or the dropping of America for the first ever atomic bomb to explode on the heads of children and civilians, or, or, or.
This member is a waste of time, so I don't recommend spending time debating his hypocrisy.

Yes, America caused hell in the regions it intervened in.
About these people demonizing Muslims and other groups online, in Saudi Arabia it is well known that twitter has bots and a whole army of users working for certain governments to spread a certain idea online.

The goal is manipulating public opinion.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(March 28, 2020 at 7:20 am)Belacqua Wrote: That seems perfectly clear. 

You're a dreamer, of course. It's not likely to happen any time soon. But I don't see how dreaming of free and fair elections among Muslims, in order to establish a peaceful government, could be opposed by any reasonable person. 

The US doesn't have free and fair elections any more, so it's an ideal we can all share.

In my opinion, having fair and democratic elections to decide what the majority of Muslims think about the meanings of the Quran is the "only way" to stop any civil war between sects and allow for the opinion of the majority to rule the Umma.

Which will necessarily mean that your quixotic version is hosed.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: That way, you won't have a rouge group going alone -like ISIS- to establish a caliphate of its own; automatically it will be a mere outlaw gang.

Rouge is make-up used to rosy up the cheeks, typically. In any event, were there a democratic vote of Muslims, then YOU would be an outlaw. So you don't really want that. What you really want is that YOUR version will triumph.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: But this opinion is kept getting demolished by the imperial powers that take advantage of Muslim division: they -the imperials- never want us Muslims united because that would signal the doom of their easy-to-get natural resources that come from Muslim dominated areas.

Comprehensively wrong. Fuel prices have tumbled exactly because SA has control of their own oil supply and have intentionally upped production to kill the so-called imperialist supply sources.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Why do Americans have the right to have elections, but we Muslims don't?

Ask Muslim governments. The US chose a representative government with regular elections. The Muslim countries chose otherwise.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: And instead on focusing on this line of thought; ISIS-like thought is the one advocated?

ISIS-like thought is definitionally Muslim thought.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Not just violence, but historical hypocrisy too, as if he didn't see the terrible torture machines European imperials made, or their emptying of whole two continents from their native people, or their early use of biologic attacks, or the dropping of America for the first ever atomic bomb to explode on the heads of children and civilians, or, or, or.

Oh and islam has never engaged in torture?

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: This member is a waste of time, so I don't recommend spending time debating his hypocrisy.

We are debating yours.

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Yes, America caused hell in the regions it intervened in.

Yup and that is wrong. And?

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: About these people demonizing Muslims and other groups online, in Saudi Arabia it is well known that twitter has bots and a whole army of users working for certain governments to spread a certain idea online.

And as usual, SA is behind the knowledge curve. Why is SA behind the curve?

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: The goal is manipulating public opinion.

Snigger. That is impossibly naive.

Noone has ever had 'free and fair' elections in this sense as the democratic ideal is in all likelihood unattainable.
It certainly couldn't be applied to religious thought as it is not subject to reason. Particularly if the notion of an omniscient deity is held as the vote would instantly demonstrate the notion as false.
Democracy in politics doesn't end any arguments very much the opposite in fact and if that applied to scripture your deity would be changing it's message every election. 
But such is the insanity and hypocrisy of religious thought.

(March 28, 2020 at 4:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: That way, you won't have a rouge group going alone -like ISIS- to establish a caliphate of its own; automatically it will be a mere outlaw gang.

Rouge is make-up used to rosy up the cheeks, typically. In any event, were there a democratic vote of Muslims, then YOU would be an outlaw. So you don't really want that. What you really want is that YOUR version will triumph.

I apologize; English is not my first language, the word I meant is "rogue".
Why would I be an outlaw? Since nobody threatens life, nobody insults, then everybody can discuss their views.
The majority vote rules.

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: But this opinion is kept getting demolished by the imperial powers that take advantage of Muslim division: they -the imperials- never want us Muslims united because that would signal the doom of their easy-to-get natural resources that come from Muslim dominated areas.

Comprehensively wrong. Fuel prices have tumbled exactly because SA has control of their own oil supply and have intentionally upped production to kill the so-called imperialist supply sources.

No; the main "Saudi" so called "government's oil company" is named "A.R.A.M.C.O" which stands for:

Quote:Saudi Aramco, also called Saudi Arabian Oil Company, formerly Arabian American Oil Company, Oil company founded by the Standard Oil Co. of California (Chevron) in 1933

It's an American company, with all its bonds in the hands of the American government, which makes Saudi Arabia a mere American "proxy".

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Why do Americans have the right to have elections, but we Muslims don't?

Ask Muslim governments. The US chose a representative government with regular elections. The Muslim countries chose otherwise.

No. Because America invades an sets proxies -like the current Iraqi government- in power.
Whenever the people revolt, the proxies -with Western+ American/Russian aid- put it down.

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: And instead on focusing on this line of thought; ISIS-like thought is the one advocated?

ISIS-like thought is definitionally Muslim thought.

No. It's a rogue thought deemed to exist only in far deserts because it judges democratic elections to be forbidden and its issuers to killed.

ISIS can't exist with others in one society, it's a cancer to all. But there are imperial cancers too eating innocence just like it does.

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Not just violence, but historical hypocrisy too, as if he didn't see the terrible torture machines European imperials made, or their emptying of whole two continents from their native people, or their early use of biologic attacks, or the dropping of America for the first ever atomic bomb to explode on the heads of children and civilians, or, or, or.

Oh and islam has never engaged in torture?

It does.
But it tortures criminals. Not children by radiations and napalm -like imperials do-.

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: This member is a waste of time, so I don't recommend spending time debating his hypocrisy.

We are debating yours.

No; he's a liar talking with lies about me, and I proved his shameful lying here:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60638-p...pid1964563

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Yes, America caused hell in the regions it intervened in.

Yup and that is wrong. And?

You are sick. You are a disgusting person.

Quote:

(March 28, 2020 at 2:35 pm)WinterHold Wrote: About these people demonizing Muslims and other groups online, in Saudi Arabia it is well known that twitter has bots and a whole army of users working for certain governments to spread a certain idea online.

And as usual, SA is behind the knowledge curve. Why is SA behind the curve?

SA is my enemy, a proxy of its master.

---

(March 28, 2020 at 5:34 pm)Mr Greene Wrote: Noone has ever had 'fr[...]

Before you divert us from your blasphemy towards me, go answer the evidence I posted against you proving that you are a mere liar:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60638-p...pid1964563

Quote:Before you divert us from your blasphemy towards me

WHAT??? You’ve been a god all this time and neglected to tell us?

Boru

(March 28, 2020 at 5:53 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(March 28, 2020 at 4:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Rouge is make-up used to rosy up the cheeks, typically. In any event, were there a democratic vote of Muslims, then YOU would be an outlaw. So you don't really want that. What you really want is that YOUR version will triumph.

I apologize; English is not my first language, the word I meant is "rogue".

Fine. Then stop pretending it is. If you write shite because of a poor command of the language, then that is not a problem so long as you and everyone else knows that. But pretending otherwise? That is something else.

(March 28, 2020 at 5:53 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Why would I be an outlaw?

Because of your quixotic interpretation of islam. Only one muslim believes in your version. YOU. In a democratic muslim regime,the remaining 99% would have you executed.

(March 28, 2020 at 5:53 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Since nobody threatens life, nobody insults, then everybody can discuss their views.
The majority vote rules.

Then why are you not speaking up against the executions? Why are you claiming that Corona is the judgement of god upon us? You quite plainly believe it is.



Comprehensively wrong. Fuel prices have tumbled exactly because SA has control of their own oil supply and have intentionally upped production to kill the so-called imperialist supply sources.


And after then, you launch into a very strange trajectory. I could dismantle it, but why? You will believe it anyway despite all evidence. You are the one trying to pretend that SA is not mysogynistic. You are the one trying to pretend that your country is dealing with the rife corona.

How far are you willing to pretend?

Have you eschewed all precaution because you have faith that your god will protect you? Or have you taken precautions despite your god's protection?

(March 28, 2020 at 5:53 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I apologize; English is not my first language, the word I meant is "rogue".

The hypocrisy and double standards are obvious here. You mistype rouge instead of rogue and the irate man pounces on it. But they are untroubled by the fact that certain atheist posters on this forum invariably mistake its/it's, your/you're, and effect/affect. 

This is not about proper language, it's about poking one's "enemy" in the eye. It's team sports unrelated to truth.

Quote:[quote pid='1964674' dateline='1585432413']

Quote:Ask Muslim governments. The US chose a representative government with regular elections. The Muslim countries chose otherwise.

No. Because America invades an sets proxies -like the current Iraqi government- in power.
Whenever the people revolt, the proxies -with Western+ American/Russian aid- put it down.

[/quote]

Again, rank hypocrisy. History makes it obvious that any attempts in the Muslim world (or Latin America) to set up a free country that isn't a pawn of US power will be crushed. 

The US removes improving governments and the irate people can then blame Muslims. The propaganda is working as intended. The anti-religion sheeple buy into it.

Quote:

Quote:ISIS-like thought is definitionally Muslim thought.

No. It's a rogue thought deemed to exist only in far deserts because it judges democratic elections to be forbidden and its issuers to killed.

ISIS can't exist with others in one society, it's a cancer to all. But there are imperial cancers too eating innocence just like it does.

And the US is happy to support ISIS against Syria, for political reasons. 

I've written on other threads about what constitutes bigotry: looking at a huge and diverse group of people and then pretending that the absolute worst members of that group are "definitionally" the essence of that group. Also looking at problems that appear in all kinds of groups and blaming only the group one is bigoted against. 

You're not debating against reasonable people. These are passionate emotional individuals who don't care about historical accuracy.

@WinterHold Does Islam deserve the coronavirus? I'm curious what your opinion is.

(March 28, 2020 at 7:27 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: @WinterHold Does Islam deserve the coronavirus? I'm curious what your opinion is.

He'll hold a plebiscite to determine Allah's opinion, as he/his deity lacks competence in the subject.