Christianity was originally a Jewish messianic cult. The crucifiction caused it some difficulties because "He can't be The One if he's dead!" No Jew would give it the time of day because you can't be the Messiah if you''re corpsified. Pretty basic theology really and Jesus cult was facing extinction.

Then a funny thing happened on the way to Damascus and Saul of Tarsus rebranded Christianity for people who didn't want to give up bacon and chop bits off of their dicks. The Roman mystery cult that arose still needed something for their saviour to do. Unlike the Jews, they were fine with an undead savior and redemption by proxy. Fast-forward through a few centuries of botched theology and proto-Christians killing each other over it and you get to original sin and that lovely tale of how God made it all better by renting Himself to Himself cheap for the weekend rather than seeking the anger-management therapy that He so desperately needed. As long as you believe in fairies. Otherwise you go to a wonderful place called Hell and get to unsubscribe from God.

(August 2, 2020 at 1:29 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Christianity was originally a Jewish messianic cult.

But can you say that for sure? Why couldn't we presume that early Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism, considering that he fails miserably on the Jewish Messiah test, and only later on became Christ?

So maybe he was some different (gnostic) entity-God who was then tied to Jewish mythology.

For instance, there was some early Christian teacher called Marcion who claimed that Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism. He even had his gospel which was Gnostic, non-historical, and did not make Jesus a Jewish man but a new fresh God who "came down at Capernaum."

Now, many scholars claim that Marcion's gospel is rewritten Luke, but some claim it could be older than other Gospels.

Poor gnostics. Great writers, shit at surviving a cultural revolution.

(August 2, 2020 at 2:10 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(August 2, 2020 at 1:29 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Christianity was originally a Jewish messianic cult.

But can you say that for sure? Why couldn't we presume that early Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism, considering that he fails miserably on the Jewish Messiah test, and only later on became Christ?

So maybe he was some different (gnostic) entity-God who was then tied to Jewish mythology.

For instance, there was some early Christian teacher called Marcion who claimed that Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism. He even had his gospel which was Gnostic, non-historical, and did not make Jesus a Jewish man but a new fresh God who "came down at Capernaum."

Now, many scholars claim that Marcion's gospel is rewritten Luke, but some claim it could be older than other Gospels.

I like your knowledge base.

If I might butt in.

We know it is a Jewish messianic myth with certainty is that the literature has the Jews taking the death of Jesus on their heda.

Jesus was their attempt to profit, pardon the pun, from their religious prophetic myths. 
The Romans had already washed theitr hands of the whole mess. 

The Jews would have no one usurp their sacrifice.

Jesus would have it no other way. 

Some say he died for all but hell belies that.

Regards
DL

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(August 2, 2020 at 8:46 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Poor gnostics.  Great writers, shit at surviving a cultural revolution.

??

Do the math and see what thinking systems dominate.

We are the majority when the numbers are looked at.

Regards
DL

Unfortunately, no, and it's not even a contest.

(August 2, 2020 at 3:59 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(August 2, 2020 at 2:10 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: But can you say that for sure? Why couldn't we presume that early Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism, considering that he fails miserably on the Jewish Messiah test, and only later on became Christ?

So maybe he was some different (gnostic) entity-God who was then tied to Jewish mythology.

For instance, there was some early Christian teacher called Marcion who claimed that Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism. He even had his gospel which was Gnostic, non-historical, and did not make Jesus a Jewish man but a new fresh God who "came down at Capernaum."

Now, many scholars claim that Marcion's gospel is rewritten Luke, but some claim it could be older than other Gospels.

I like your knowledge base.

If I might butt in.

We know it is a Jewish messianic myth with certainty is that the literature has the Jews taking the death of Jesus on their heda.

Jesus was their attempt to profit, pardon the pun, from their religious prophetic myths. 
The Romans had already washed theitr hands of the whole mess. 

The Jews would have no one usurp their sacrifice.

Jesus would have it no other way. 

Some say he died for all but hell belies that.

Regards
DL

---

(August 2, 2020 at 8:46 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Poor gnostics.  Great writers, shit at surviving a cultural revolution.

??

Do the math and see what thinking systems dominate.

We are the majority when the numbers are looked at.

Regards
DL

In the Eastern countries, you mean?

Also, Christian will say Jesus died for all but that doesn't necessarily mean all will be saved obviously. But it's a gift nevertheless in that by God's grace, rather than by one's merits, one can be saved in spite of one's "fallenness". If you are moved to accept God's grace, that is. That is the Gospel basically (from the mainstream Christian POVs), though variants of this need to of course be kept in mind.

(August 2, 2020 at 2:10 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(August 2, 2020 at 1:29 am)Paleophyte Wrote: Christianity was originally a Jewish messianic cult.

But can you say that for sure?

No, but you can't say anything for sure with such a shitty historical record. Or lack thereof. It's consistent with what we do know. There was no lack of Messianic crazies and it's a common enough name.

(August 2, 2020 at 3:59 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:

(August 2, 2020 at 2:10 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: But can you say that for sure? Why couldn't we presume that early Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism, considering that he fails miserably on the Jewish Messiah test, and only later on became Christ?

So maybe he was some different (gnostic) entity-God who was then tied to Jewish mythology.

For instance, there was some early Christian teacher called Marcion who claimed that Jesus had nothing to do with Judaism. He even had his gospel which was Gnostic, non-historical, and did not make Jesus a Jewish man but a new fresh God who "came down at Capernaum."

Now, many scholars claim that Marcion's gospel is rewritten Luke, but some claim it could be older than other Gospels.

I like your knowledge base.

If I might butt in.

We know it is a Jewish messianic myth with certainty is that the literature has the Jews taking the death of Jesus on their heda.

Jesus was their attempt to profit, pardon the pun, from their religious prophetic myths. 
The Romans had already washed theitr hands of the whole mess. 

The Jews would have no one usurp their sacrifice.

Jesus would have it no other way. 

Some say he died for all but hell belies that.

The literature says absolutely nothing about the life and death of Jesus. There is not a single contemporary account. This silence alone tells you a lot about the true unimportance of Jesus.

The Biblical account is hearsay at best, author unknown. The tale of Pilate washing his hands of the affair varies depending on the account and is a pitiful attempt to shift the blame for what was clearly a Roman execution conducted by Roman soldiers and Roman authorities. The tale of the trial at the Sanhedrin is utter fiction comparable to bringing Congress into session over the Christmas holidays to try a horse thief.

(July 26, 2020 at 2:38 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
 
Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.
 
If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.
 
These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
 
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.
 
Regards
DL

it's almost like listening to a child explain how you car works... sin is not a choice sport. you we are all slaves to it. Jesus on the cross paid/bought back all slaves who do not wish to serve sin or satan. that is the only choice/free will decision we have. to Go with God or remain with satan.
 Christ died because there would be nothing for us to do to get out of the service of satan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiYJ5Io59gU&t=308s

(August 3, 2020 at 11:31 am)Drich Wrote: sin is not a choice sport. you we are all slaves to it.

Drich is a slave to his own stupidity.