(March 15, 2021 at 4:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 15, 2021 at 1:09 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I posted an AP article earlier. 

Good thing is that the Pope has no real power beyond those who swallow his bullshit. LGBT are not obligated to bow to his bullshit.

Funny, because in the other thread you seemed to think the Pope DID have that power. Make up your mind.

Boru

Do you have any concept of the word "Nuance"?

The Pope/Vatican does have power and influence. But not in any western government law making power. 

He only has power over those who follow him. Nobody in the open free west is mandated by government to worship him or his religion. He has no power over same sex couples. 

His proclaiming the Vatican cannot bless same sex unions because "it is a sin" is an attempt for that institution to assert power over others.

(March 16, 2021 at 11:56 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 15, 2021 at 4:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Funny, because in the other thread you seemed to think the Pope DID have that power. Make up your mind.

Boru

Do you have any concept of the word "Nuance"?

The Pope/Vatican does have power and influence. But not in any western government law making power. 

He only has power over those who follow him. Nobody in the open free west is mandated by government to worship him or his religion. He has no power over same sex couples. 

His proclaiming the Vatican cannot bless same sex unions because "it is a sin" is an attempt for that institution to assert power over others.

You’re the one who implied that the Pope had the power to make law, not me.

He actually does have some power over same sex couples, if those couples happen to be Catholic. Even if they aren’t Catholic, he can refuse to let them be married in a Catholic Church.

Boru

(March 16, 2021 at 11:56 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 15, 2021 at 4:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Funny, because in the other thread you seemed to think the Pope DID have that power. Make up your mind.

Boru

Do you have any concept of the word "Nuance"?

The Pope/Vatican does have power and influence. But not in any western government law making power. 

He only has power over those who follow him. Nobody in the open free west is mandated by government to worship him or his religion. He has no power over same sex couples. 

His proclaiming the Vatican cannot bless same sex unions because "it is a sin" is an attempt for that institution to assert power over others.

Quote:Documents presented in a federal court case over same-sex marriages has exposed deep involvement by religious groups in a 2008 referendum that overturned such unions in California.

Lawyers David Boies and Theodore Olson have teamed up in court to argue that the California vote to deny marriage rights to same-sex couples violates the U.S. Constitution. The partnership raised eyebrows because the two come from opposite sides of the political spectrum. Boies is known for his liberal views, and Olson served as solicitor general in the administration of President George W. Bush.

Boies and Olson have filed the litigation in a federal court based in San Francisco. With the trial moving forward, the two have sought to show the discriminatory character of the same-sex marriage ban, including the extent of church involvement in outlawing such marriages in California.

Golden State voters narrowly approved Proposition 8 in November of 2008. The state constitutional amendment overturned a ruling by the California Supreme Court legalizing same-sex marriage.

Boies and Olson have introduced into evidence memos and e-mails that show how leaders of the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) worked in concert to win passage of Prop. 8.

For example, the executive director of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops sent an e-mail to bishops and a cardinal pointing out that Catholics had played a prominent role in lining up volunteers and donating money to win a spot for Prop. 8 on the ballot, reported the Los Angeles Times.

---

The documents, the legal Web site went on to report, “also shed some light on the Prop 8 campaign’s finances.” They show, for example, that the campaign to gather signatures to get Prop. 8 on the ballot cost $1.5 million.

Reported law.com, “The bulk of that money came from the LDS church, the Catholic Church in San Diego, a foundation run by wealthy conservative Howard Ahmanson, and assorted small donors.”

(link)

Aren't Catholic couples required to go before the priest who will marry them and tell him about their sexual (non) practices? And if they had sex, it seems that from now on they won't be able to marry in Catholic Church because this is also what the pope declared:

Quote:Blessing same-sex couples “would constitute a certain imitation or analogue of the nuptial blessing,” which instead is exclusive to a marriage between a man and a woman, the document said. Couples who are divorced, remarried or sexually active outside of marriage also cannot be blessed.

https://religionnews.com/2021/03/15/pope...x-couples/

Although this seemed to be the case for long time, and usually couples who broke Church's dogma searched for priests who would for a price turn the blind eye.

(March 16, 2021 at 1:44 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Aren't Catholic couples required to go before the priest who will marry them and tell him about their sexual (non) practices? And if they had sex, it seems that from now on they won't be able to marry in Catholic Church because this is also what the pope declared:

Quote:Blessing same-sex couples “would constitute a certain imitation or analogue of the nuptial blessing,” which instead is exclusive to a marriage between a man and a woman, the document said. Couples who are divorced, remarried or sexually active outside of marriage also cannot be blessed.

https://religionnews.com/2021/03/15/pope...x-couples/

Although this seemed to be the case for long time, and usually couples who broke Church's dogma searched for priests who would for a price turn the blind eye.

Some of them turn that blind eye out of compassion.

Boru

(March 16, 2021 at 2:20 am)Seax Wrote: Why are you so mad? It affects you in no way whatsoever, since you live in a secular state & you don't believe in Catholicism.

I care about others, Which for you may be a strange concept.

Thoughts and prayers. RAmen

(March 16, 2021 at 5:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 16, 2021 at 2:20 am)Seax Wrote: Why are you so mad? It affects you in no way whatsoever, since you live in a secular state & you don't believe in Catholicism.

So, only those things which affect us immediately and personally are worthy of concern?

I'm neither Tutsi nor Rwandan, but that genocide affected me.

I'm not a parent, but I'm angered by child abuse.

I'm neither Muslim nor Arab, but I object to the characterization of all members of these groups as terrorist.

I'm not elderly, but elder abuse makes me angry.

And so on.

Boru

Catholicism is a belief system that anyone in a secular society is free to adopt or abandon. It's a false analogy.

The foundation of a free society is freedom of conscience; individuals are allowed to think for themselves and make up their own minds, to seek the truth for themselves. Necessarily this means that others will hold believes one thinks are wrong; that is their right. You are allowed to be an atheist, and others are allowed to be Catholic, according to their personal conscience.

You have every right to tell the Catholic Church that they are wrong, but you have no right to insist that they change their religion to suit you. You wouldn't like it if the Catholic Church started telling you how to run this forum.

---

(March 16, 2021 at 12:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 16, 2021 at 11:56 am)Brian37 Wrote: Do you have any concept of the word "Nuance"?

The Pope/Vatican does have power and influence. But not in any western government law making power. 

He only has power over those who follow him. Nobody in the open free west is mandated by government to worship him or his religion. He has no power over same sex couples. 

His proclaiming the Vatican cannot bless same sex unions because "it is a sin" is an attempt for that institution to assert power over others.

You’re the one who implied that the Pope had the power to make law, not me.

He actually does have some power over same sex couples, if those couples happen to be Catholic. Even if they aren’t Catholic, he can refuse to let them be married in a Catholic Church.

Boru

Which is his right. No one has the right to be married in someone's else church, especially not in a country like America with thousands of denominations & where anyone is free to start his own if none of the preexisting ones suit him.

(March 16, 2021 at 4:01 pm)Seax Wrote:

(March 16, 2021 at 5:49 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: So, only those things which affect us immediately and personally are worthy of concern?

I'm neither Tutsi nor Rwandan, but that genocide affected me.

I'm not a parent, but I'm angered by child abuse.

I'm neither Muslim nor Arab, but I object to the characterization of all members of these groups as terrorist.

I'm not elderly, but elder abuse makes me angry.

And so on.

Boru

Catholicism is a belief system that anyone in a secular society is free to adopt or abandon. It's a false analogy.

The foundation of a free society is freedom of conscience; individuals are allowed to think for themselves and make up their own minds, to seek the truth for themselves. Necessarily this means that others will hold believes one thinks are wrong; that is their right. You are allowed to be an atheist, and others are allowed to be Catholic, according to their personal conscience.

You have every right to tell the Catholic Church that they are wrong, but you have no right to insist that they change their religion to suit you. You wouldn't like it if the Catholic Church started telling you how to run this forum.

---

(March 16, 2021 at 12:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You’re the one who implied that the Pope had the power to make law, not me.

He actually does have some power over same sex couples, if those couples happen to be Catholic. Even if they aren’t Catholic, he can refuse to let them be married in a Catholic Church.

Boru

Which is his right. No one has the right to be married in someone's else church, especially not in a country like America with thousands of denominations & where anyone is free to start his own if none of the preexisting ones suit him.

I think you’ve got things a bit muddled. I accept that the Pope does have the right to not bless same sex unions, and I have very clearly said so. As the supreme ecclesiastical authority of the Catholic Church, it’s for him to decide the rules, not me.

My only criticism of Francis (about this issue, at least) is how this announcement came right on the heels of another one he made counseling love and acceptance of our fellows. He’s being both hypocritical and cruel. Not questioning his authority, just his compassion.

Boru

The guy who fed his own brethren to the beast? Compassion? I think that assuming his counseling of love and acceptance was uniformly broad was a mistake born out of hope....alot of people (and alot of non-catholics) got caught up in that.

He meant it when he said it, in all of the same ways that christians have always said it and in the same ways that christians have always meant it.