(September 7, 2021 at 1:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I’d say the value of money is ‘fluid’ rather than ‘artificial’. What people are willing to pay for something changes, so the value of money changes. But the idea that money has value is intrinsic.

Boru

I suppose it's a comparable idea but if you boil it down to reality there's no need to soften the meaning.  Imagine two Cro-Magnons meeting on common ground and trying to decide how many of these shiny metal arm bands they should trade for a bunch of hides.  The value is quite arbitrary and likely takes time and many trades between many different people to come to any agreement.  Even in our society now money has far less value to the extremely rich because they have so much of it.

---

What truly concerns me regarding any electronic currency is the reliance on our infrastructure. I feel that we often take it for granted in the rich industrialized countries. There are lots of places around the world where dependable electricity is not a given. We've seen localized weather events take down a grid for an entire state. That could grow to encompass the whole country or even more if the right event occurred. What will we do then?

Simple, is that your middle name?

(September 7, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Spongebob Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 1:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I’d say the value of money is ‘fluid’ rather than ‘artificial’. What people are willing to pay for something changes, so the value of money changes. But the idea that money has value is intrinsic.

Boru

I suppose it's a comparable idea but if you boil it down to reality there's no need to soften the meaning.  Imagine two Cro-Magnons meeting on common ground and trying to decide how many of these shiny metal arm bands they should trade for a bunch of hides.  The value is quite arbitrary and likely takes time and many trades between many different people to come to any agreement.  Even in our society now money has far less value to the extremely rich because they have so much of it.

---

What truly concerns me regarding any electronic currency is the reliance on our infrastructure.  I feel that we often take it for granted in the rich industrialized countries.  There are lots of places around the world where dependable electricity is not a given.  We've seen localized weather events take down a grid for an entire state.  That could grow to encompass the whole country or even more if the right event occurred.  What will we do then?

Value is always arbitrary, otherwise how could an asshole named Hitler convince an entire nation to follow him off a cliff. 

The key to peace isn't blind loyalty.

(September 7, 2021 at 2:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Spongebob Wrote: I suppose it's a comparable idea but if you boil it down to reality there's no need to soften the meaning.  Imagine two Cro-Magnons meeting on common ground and trying to decide how many of these shiny metal arm bands they should trade for a bunch of hides.  The value is quite arbitrary and likely takes time and many trades between many different people to come to any agreement.  Even in our society now money has far less value to the extremely rich because they have so much of it.

---

What truly concerns me regarding any electronic currency is the reliance on our infrastructure.  I feel that we often take it for granted in the rich industrialized countries.  There are lots of places around the world where dependable electricity is not a given.  We've seen localized weather events take down a grid for an entire state.  That could grow to encompass the whole country or even more if the right event occurred.  What will we do then?

Value is always arbitrary, otherwise how could an asshole named Hitler convince an entire nation to follow him off a cliff. 

The key to peace isn't blind loyalty.

Again with the Hitler stuff. Sheesh.

Boru

(September 7, 2021 at 2:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Value is always arbitrary, otherwise how could an asshole named Hitler convince an entire nation to follow him off a cliff. 

The key to peace isn't blind loyalty.

I'm not sure what it has to do with Hitler but the value of just about anything is relative to the people doing the trading.  One farmer might trade a cow for a dozen chickens but another might not budge for 50 chickens and yet another farmer might offer his wife.

(September 7, 2021 at 4:15 pm)Spongebob Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 2:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Value is always arbitrary, otherwise how could an asshole named Hitler convince an entire nation to follow him off a cliff. 

The key to peace isn't blind loyalty.

I'm not sure what it has to do with Hitler but the value of just about anything is relative to the people doing the trading.  One farmer might trade a cow for a dozen chickens but another might not budge for 50 chickens and yet another farmer might offer his wife.

Wait…you can trade your wife for a cow?

I gotta make some calls…

Boru

(September 7, 2021 at 4:18 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 4:15 pm)Spongebob Wrote: I'm not sure what it has to do with Hitler but the value of just about anything is relative to the people doing the trading.  One farmer might trade a cow for a dozen chickens but another might not budge for 50 chickens and yet another farmer might offer his wife.

Wait…you can trade your wife for a cow?

I gotta make some calls…

Boru

Not gonna comment on who's getting the better deal in that case.   

(September 7, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Spongebob Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 1:15 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I’d say the value of money is ‘fluid’ rather than ‘artificial’. What people are willing to pay for something changes, so the value of money changes. But the idea that money has value is intrinsic.

Boru

I suppose it's a comparable idea but if you boil it down to reality there's no need to soften the meaning.  Imagine two Cro-Magnons meeting on common ground and trying to decide how many of these shiny metal arm bands they should trade for a bunch of hides.  The value is quite arbitrary and likely takes time and many trades between many different people to come to any agreement.  Even in our society now money has far less value to the extremely rich because they have so much of it.

---

What truly concerns me regarding any electronic currency is the reliance on our infrastructure.  I feel that we often take it for granted in the rich industrialized countries.  There are lots of places around the world where dependable electricity is not a given.  We've seen localized weather events take down a grid for an entire state.  That could grow to encompass the whole country or even more if the right event occurred.  What will we do then?

Cro-magnon had shinny metal arm bands?

Gosh the rumor of an advanced ice age civilization on Atlantis must be true. 

---

(September 7, 2021 at 4:18 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 4:15 pm)Spongebob Wrote: I'm not sure what it has to do with Hitler but the value of just about anything is relative to the people doing the trading.  One farmer might trade a cow for a dozen chickens but another might not budge for 50 chickens and yet another farmer might offer his wife.

Wait…you can trade your wife for a cow?

I gotta make some calls…

Boru

Assuming your wife isn’t a cow already.

---

(September 7, 2021 at 2:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Spongebob Wrote: I suppose it's a comparable idea but if you boil it down to reality there's no need to soften the meaning.  Imagine two Cro-Magnons meeting on common ground and trying to decide how many of these shiny metal arm bands they should trade for a bunch of hides.  The value is quite arbitrary and likely takes time and many trades between many different people to come to any agreement.  Even in our society now money has far less value to the extremely rich because they have so much of it.

---

What truly concerns me regarding any electronic currency is the reliance on our infrastructure.  I feel that we often take it for granted in the rich industrialized countries.  There are lots of places around the world where dependable electricity is not a given.  We've seen localized weather events take down a grid for an entire state.  That could grow to encompass the whole country or even more if the right event occurred.  What will we do then?

Value is always arbitrary, otherwise how could an asshole named Hitler convince an entire nation to follow him off a cliff. 

The key to peace isn't blind loyalty.

Value as in money doesn’t mean what you think it means, Brian.

---

(September 7, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Spongebob Wrote:

---

What truly concerns me regarding any electronic currency is the reliance on our infrastructure.  I feel that we often take it for granted in the rich industrialized countries.  There are lots of places around the world where dependable electricity is not a given.  We've seen localized weather events take down a grid for an entire state.  That could grow to encompass the whole country or even more if the right event occurred.  What will we do then?

In that crypto currency is no worse than the dollar you spend via your credit card swipe.

How many people have electronic statements so they can’t even attempt to show, much less prove, how much they have in the bank or the brokerage account if the relevant infrastructure fails?

(September 7, 2021 at 9:03 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: In that crypto currency is no worse than the dollar you spend via your credit card swipe.

How many people have electronic statements so they can’t even attempt to show, much less prove, how much they have in the bank or the brokerage account if the relevant infrastructure fails?

I'm referring to the potential future where we totally convert to digital currency.  IF that even occurs, that is.  I'm not a prepper or anything, but they do have a valid point that a technological collapse means digital money no longer exists.  Not that I'm buying gold anytime soon.

(September 7, 2021 at 4:15 pm)Spongebob Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 2:41 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Value is always arbitrary, otherwise how could an asshole named Hitler convince an entire nation to follow him off a cliff. 

The key to peace isn't blind loyalty.

I'm not sure what it has to do with Hitler but the value of just about anything is relative to the people doing the trading.  One farmer might trade a cow for a dozen chickens but another might not budge for 50 chickens and yet another farmer might offer his wife.

^^^^^ Yes you are, you answered your own question. "Just about anything is relative to the people doing the trading", which was my point. But that also applies to ideology, religion, politics, and economics. The "exchange" in all contexts is a way of socializing and forming group order. All are forms of competition over control and resources. 

The only argument is what does humanity want, or are willing to tolerate to survive. 

But for cruelty and brutality to exist, the currency is blind loyalty. Hitler's "currency" was falsely playing victim and offering himself up as a cure.