Well, you know, when free speech allows for the spread of misinformation there are going to be misinformed people. One would think it is easy to differentiate fact from conspiracy, but unfortunately some people are too easily duped.

Yet, in the end the differentiation is not complicated. One either believes the experts or the internet nobodies.

And then there is this... If these vaccines are so great then that would make Donald Trump the greatest leader of all time since these are his vaccines...
Trump is the one that got these vaccines going with "operation warp speed", dumping billions of dollars into it before they even finished trials which created a conflict of interests since they were heavily invested...
So if your claiming these vaccines are great then you are also claiming that Donald Trump is the greatest for making it happen
You can't have it both ways... LoL

---

I'll repost these facts cos they are very important and look forward to your reply @BrianSoddingBoru4

1. And he continues the empty blather 

2. Trump didn't do shit. The credit for the vaccine goes to the scientists who painstakingly developed them. Throwing money at something won't get you a vaccine a group of highly skilled dedicated specialists will. The money wasn't even Trump's it was public money and warp speed wasn't even his idea. So no Trump contributed nothing and gets credit for nothing 

This is my last statement to this idiot

He really really means it.  This agenda he's all about.  It's important to stop people from protecting themselves.

(September 10, 2021 at 12:03 am)Ranjr Wrote: He really really means it.  This agenda he's all about.  It's important to stop people from protecting themselves.

The ability of some to spread long-debunked stuff they read on the internet is amazing. Ronaldo is the poster child for this  

https://www.thejournal.ie/debunked-covid...9-Jul2021/

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/sca...-they-seem

https://www.reuters.com/article/factchec...SL1N2P21DB

https://www.adrreports.eu/en/

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/c...021_en.pdf

https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/f74d463b

https://factcheck.afp.com/online-posts-m...ons-europe

(September 7, 2021 at 12:14 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 4:34 am)Ronaldo Wrote: But for now im focusing on the fact that the vaccines haven't provided immunity like they said it would and hasn't ended the pandemic and lockdowns 

And we’re ignoring that not enough people have taken even a single dose for herd immunity to kick in, even with the conservative estimate of about 70%?

Disagreement about the nature of the virus among experts is one thing, but when one side legit does not understand how herd immunity or vaccination work and the other one does, I know which side I’m going to back.

You can still catch and spread the virus after being vaxed, right? Well then? How can it create herd immunity?

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Deduction...

A person claims all swans are white
The result is that there are black swans... This is a refutation by definition

Someone makes a claim such as "these vaccines will end covid" or "these vaccines will provide immunity"
The result contradicts the claim... This is a refutation by definition

(September 9, 2021 at 10:57 pm)Ronaldo Wrote: Israel is the most vaxed nation and have the biggest spike... That completely rules out any notion of it lowering cases in that country at least
Ok not all nations are experiencing a spike but you only need some nations to spike to show that its not as effective as they said it would be

Israel is not the most vaccinated nation in the world. It's not even in the top 20, even if you remove nations with fewer than 200,000 residents from the list. The top most vaccinated nation is Malta. And how are they doing? Pretty bloody good, actually.

Quote:- Effective vaccines have always made a person immune... The definition of vaccine contains this "provide immunity against one or several diseases"  
If it doesn't provide immunity then how is it possible to reach herd immunity? Its not
And if they don't provide immunity then whats the use of getting vaxed in the first place?

While the subtleties of how vaccines work exactly seem to be beyond you, here's a crucial point: there has never been a vaccine that's 100% effective. That said, The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines both have an effectiveness rate of more than 94%. And, in practice, even when COVID breaks through, the vaccinated are less likely to have a severe case and far less likely to die.

Quote:- Boosters was never part of the deal... The claim was that these vaccines would end covid without boosters... They haven't.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Quote:- If its the vaxed testing positive then what are the unvaxed worried about? Why not let the unvaxed deal with their health choice?

Besides the fact that even with breakthrough cases being a thing, the vaccinated still have a better chance at pulling through (I posted a source earlier in this post), on a large enough scale, letting the unvaxed dealign with their health choice would lead hospitals being overrun with cases to the point where people dying of other causes have to be turned away. And this is happening in Georgia right now. And since you're Australian, here's an article about the possibility of that same thing happening in Victoria.

Quote:Over here now to return home to the state of Victoria from NSW a person must
- Be vaxed
- Quarantine in NSW for 14 days
- Get a negative covid test
- Quarantine again for 14 days in Victoria
So if their so effective then why must a person go through all that other rubbish while still wearing masks and being subjected to lockdowns???

Better safe than sorry. Plus, very few nations have even reached the old estimate of 66% herd immunity. Not Israel, not America, not Australia. And the Delta variant has a higher R0, and thus, a higher percentage for herd immunity necessary.

Quote:

I can't help but notice that the decimal places in the first column are off by two places. Or is the CDC saying that, for instance, 5.346% of people 70+ years old end up neither alive nor dead from the infection?

Quote:

Really safe and effective... I believe the CDC has even more deaths...
And less than 10% of cases get reported... So what is the real figure...

I'm going to need some actual links to the sources for this particular dataset. Because I actually tried to find the numbers in that image, and found nothing. I even tried doing a reverse image search and found nothing. I need to be certain that these numbers weren't just pulled out of somebody's ass. Not even necessarily saying they're false yet. I'm just saying that I don't know enough about it to comment; it could be legit, it could be just something you or some Facebook friend pulled out of their asses, although, with something like this, I suspect the latter is more likely.

Quote:The swine flu vaccine in the 70s got pulled after 25 deaths, now we're accepting hundreds of thousands of them...

Of course, the fact that the swine flu outbreak in question only had 13 hospitalised cases period and one death might have had something to do with it. As of right now, there have been 4.55 million deaths from COVID.

@Rev. Rye Hello

4,5 million deaths WITH covid (not from)... Average age 85... Already dying... Not much of a virus



Not much of a virus at all...

But talk to me about these vaccines that don't give people immunity... How can they possibly provide herd immunity???

(September 10, 2021 at 1:05 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 9, 2021 at 10:57 pm)Ronaldo Wrote: Israel is the most vaxed nation and have the biggest spike... That completely rules out any notion of it lowering cases in that country at least
Ok not all nations are experiencing a spike but you only need some nations to spike to show that its not as effective as they said it would be

Israel is not the most vaccinated nation in the world. It's not even in the top 20, even if you remove nations with fewer than 200,000 residents from the list. The top most vaccinated nation is Malta. And how are they doing? Pretty bloody good, actually.

Quote:- Effective vaccines have always made a person immune... The definition of vaccine contains this "provide immunity against one or several diseases"  
If it doesn't provide immunity then how is it possible to reach herd immunity? Its not
And if they don't provide immunity then whats the use of getting vaxed in the first place?

While the subtleties of how vaccines work exactly seem to be beyond you, here's a crucial point: there has never been a vaccine that's 100% effective. That said, The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines both have an effectiveness rate of more than 94%. And, in practice, even when COVID breaks through, the vaccinated are less likely to have a severe case and far less likely to die.

Quote:- Boosters was never part of the deal... The claim was that these vaccines would end covid without boosters... They haven't.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Quote:- If its the vaxed testing positive then what are the unvaxed worried about? Why not let the unvaxed deal with their health choice?

Besides the fact that even with breakthrough cases being a thing, the vaccinated still have a better chance at pulling through (I posted a source earlier in this post), on a large enough scale, letting the unvaxed dealign with their health choice would lead hospitals being overrun with cases to the point where people dying of other causes have to be turned away. And this is happening in Georgia right now. And since you're Australian, here's an article about the possibility of that same thing happening in Victoria.

Quote:Over here now to return home to the state of Victoria from NSW a person must
- Be vaxed
- Quarantine in NSW for 14 days
- Get a negative covid test
- Quarantine again for 14 days in Victoria
So if their so effective then why must a person go through all that other rubbish while still wearing masks and being subjected to lockdowns???

Better safe than sorry. Plus, very few nations have even reached the old estimate of 66% herd immunity. Not Israel, not America, not Australia. And the Delta variant has a higher R0, and thus, a higher percentage for herd immunity necessary.

Quote:

I can't help but notice that the decimal places in the first column are off by two places. Or is the CDC saying that, for instance, 5.346% of people 70+ years old end up neither alive nor dead from the infection?

Quote:

Really safe and effective... I believe the CDC has even more deaths...
And less than 10% of cases get reported... So what is the real figure...

I'm going to need some actual links to the sources for this particular dataset. Because I actually tried to find the numbers in that image, and found nothing. I even tried doing a reverse image search and found nothing. I need to be certain that these numbers weren't just pulled out of somebody's ass. Not even necessarily saying they're false yet. I'm just saying that I don't know enough about it to comment; it could be legit, it could be just something you or some Facebook friend pulled out of their asses, although, with something like this, I suspect the latter is more likely.

Quote:The swine flu vaccine in the 70s got pulled after 25 deaths, now we're accepting hundreds of thousands of them...

Of course, the fact that the swine flu outbreak in question only had 13 hospitalised cases period and one death might have had something to do with it. As of right now, there have been 4.55 million deaths from COVID.

The links I posted in post#1790 show how these graphs are either misunderstood or are being misused by Anti Vaxxers .

They work a majority of the time, just not 100% of the time. If the efficacy rates are high enough, enough people can be made immune to provide herd immunity. The faster you can get this through your skulls, the faster we can all get on with our lives.