(June 22, 2009 at 5:11 pm)LEDO Wrote: God doesn't exist because there is no place for God to exist. The existance of God would also violate the second law of thermodynamics.

LMFAO - I just gotta say...that's a fucking classic that. Suitable for the Jokes thread.

Hey - what am I kidding? This is no joke(!) Hahaha.

EvF

The God Hypothesis, as defined by Dawkins in the GD chapter 2, page 52.

Quote:There exists a superhuman

Excuse me?

Quote:supernatural

Says who?

Quote:intelligence

Intelligence, as well as everything else, was created by the so called "superhuman, supernatural" being. So this being wouldn't have intelligence.

Quote:who deliberately designed and created the universe and everything in it, including us

That's only one form of the God Hypothesis....an American form. Not many people, i.e. the vast majority of theists don't believe God designed everything in the universe including us, only that God was the force behind the Big Bang.

Dawkins here only challenges one form of ignorant i.e. American, creationism.

And so the whole complexity issue just falls away.

Dawkins either completely ignores or is utterly ignorant of Simplistic Creationism.

Intelligent Design came from America, enough said.

I'm finished with this thread, if you got any issues start a new one. The God Delusion isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

@LEDO

Second Law of thermodynamics? Funny stuff. You ARE being satirical?

That that same claim is made,often, by theists as proof FOR the existence of God. Their misunderstanding seems to derive from not grasping that the earth is not a closed system.



Thought for today: "Personal certitude is a mark of the closed mind" (Tarquin St John Shagnasty)

(June 22, 2009 at 8:49 pm)padraic Wrote: @LEDO

Second Law of thermodynamics? Funny stuff. You ARE being satirical?

That that same claim is made,often, by theists as proof FOR the existence of God. Their misunderstanding seems to derive from not grasping that the earth is not a closed system.



Thought for today: "Personal certitude is a mark of the closed mind" (Tarquin St John Shagnasty)

No. I am not being funny at all. God, like the universe would have to become more chaotic with time, unless he is constantly expanding etc. For God to be steady and eternal would mean his entropy has somehow ceased. This could only happen if his entropy was at a maximun for his volume, which would mean his chaotic nature would be infinity.

God is described with certain properties. Thought is one of those properties. How does God think? What is the mechanism? How are his thoughts stored? This would require a location. Where?

Quantum Physics claims there is no frame of reference outside of the universe, hence where ever god is located, it must be within the confinds of an expanding universe where entropy (chaos) is increasing.

Nothing exists outside of the "laws" of the universe. God must be defined within those laws, or it cannot exist.

One might claim god, by definition exists outside the laws of the universe, however the laws claim nothing exists outside of them, ergo, "God is nothing."

(June 23, 2009 at 5:04 pm)LEDO Wrote: Nothing exists outside of the "laws" of the universe. God must be defined within those laws, or it cannot exist.

But surely if God isn't above those laws then perhaps he's...not God?.

Because if God is supposed to be all powerful; and he created such laws -must he not 'be outside of them'?...Because if he's not and he's no more powerful than the laws themselves, then you might as well say the laws are just as "Godly" as God because they're just as infallible as He, right? Because even He can't break them? "He" who has supposed to have created them and is supposed to be all-powerful?

EvF

(June 22, 2009 at 8:06 pm)Anto Kennedy Wrote: That's only one form of the God Hypothesis....an American form.

Bollocks! That's pretty much the standard Christian form of deity and I (as an ex-Catholic) will testify to that.

Kyu

(June 23, 2009 at 5:16 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

(June 23, 2009 at 5:04 pm)LEDO Wrote: Nothing exists outside of the "laws" of the universe. God must be defined within those laws, or it cannot exist.

But surely if God isn't above those laws then perhaps he's...not God?.

Because if God is supposed to be all powerful; and he created such laws -must he not 'be outside of them'?...Because if he's not and he's no more powerful than the laws themselves, then you might as well say the laws are just as "Godly" as God because they're just as infallible as He, right? Because even He can't break them? "He" who has supposed to have created them and is supposed to be all-powerful?

EvF

Why does god have to be all powerful? How does the person who makes that claim know god is all powerful? What if god wasn't all powerful, but still was the prime mover in creating the universe? Since there is no real evidence that any law of the universe has ever been broken, the assumption would be they can't be broken and god is either NOT all powerful, or doesn't give a rats ass to break any laws.

It is simply easier to "god" out of the equation altogether.

(June 24, 2009 at 5:10 pm)LEDO Wrote: Why does god have to be all powerful?

He doesn't have to be of course, it depends on how you define him. I was just using one common definition, the whole "God=Omipotent + Omniscient" one...so my argument is pretty much on the matter of that really.

What I find interesting that it has been indeed shown that Omnipotence+Omniscience=A logical contradiction. So the only way for a "God" to have both is if his 'Omnipotence" his All powerfulness - included being above logic itself.

Quote:How does the person who makes that claim know god is all powerful?

Good point. How can he possibly? Especially when there's no evidence for God. Despite this - some people claim he is tho...like I said - it's one common definition. The whole "God can do anything" thing.

Quote:What if god wasn't all powerful, but still was the prime mover in creating the universe?

Then that would simply be God by a different definition.

Quote:Since there is no real evidence that any law of the universe has ever been broken, the assumption would be they can't be broken and god is either NOT all powerful, or doesn't give a rats ass to break any laws.

Agreed. Or that he doesn't exist

Quote:It is simply easier to "god" out of the equation altogether.

Indeed and agreed - why postulate a deity without any evidence whatsoever??

EvF

(June 23, 2009 at 5:04 pm)LEDO Wrote: One might claim god, by definition exists outside the laws of the universe, however the laws claim nothing exists outside of them, ergo, "God is nothing."

Bingo, the mans got it.

Now the next question is, what is nothing?

It's a bloody head melter. Read up on the Egyptian Ogdoad system, the Adi-Buddha, Akkadian Tiamat, and every other primordial god of nothingness.

The reason the Judeo-Christian god is called YHWH, or the unnameable God, is because we can't understand the nothing, simply because we have no point of reference.

In our minds it's just an endless black screen. A complete mystery.

This is what I meant earlier when saying "the gap filler is the gap"

The word gap itself comes from the Scandinavian manifestation of this god, Ginnungagap.

Quote:In Norse mythology, Ginnungagap ("magical (and creative) power-filled space"[1]) was the vast, primordial void that existed prior to the creation of the manifest universe.

Wiki Link



Now we really, really, REALLY, have to start a new thread. This is where it gets interesting. It took 4 pages but someone finally nailed it.

(June 25, 2009 at 3:16 pm)Anto Kennedy Wrote: Now the next question is, what is nothing?

The total lack of anything even space. Pretty much blows it for your god or any other don't it?

Next?

Kyu