(May 4, 2022 at 4:54 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:  Would you choose not to protect a man from someone who took his possessions, his health, and killed his family?  That's not even the problem of suffering, that's active complicity.

Assault in progress, what do you do?

I study self-defense for this purpose, I would like to be able to stop an assault in progress and help protect innocent lives if I can.

Of course I don't treat the creator the same way that I would treat a man or an animal. So I wouldn't try to fight YHWH if he were attacking an innocent person, but I would at the least pray about it and be curios as to why he would do such a thing.

Is it possible that an omnipotent being can come to conclusions which are alien to our own understanding?

It seems that most people here are more upset with God than Job is despite only reading of his suffering but having never experienced exactly what he went through.

I knew this would be a difficult topic when I started it, and so far I am not disappointed by the response I've gotten. Ultimately you either trust God to do what he will with his creation or you don't, but I believe that an eternal reward is what makes all of this suffering truly worthwhile. Even if we lived in a fair world where the righteous prosper and those who do evil always get punished; what would any of our labor amount to if our destiny is dust? Our physical bodies are destined to return to this Earth at some point and nothing we build, save or work for is ever guaranteed to last forever. 

What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

(I know most of you are atheists so please just take the last two questions as hypotheticals.)

(May 4, 2022 at 6:34 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

If you truly believe what you claim, then all almost infinite suffering is no big deal.  The more suffering, the better the paradise in the next life.  No pain, no gain, eh?

I repudiate this belief.  Not only that, I will actively fight against this idea whenever I hear it.  It is a recipe for justifying evil, doing evil, or letting evil be done.

(May 4, 2022 at 6:05 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 5:41 pm)Helios Wrote: God created Satan and didn't slay him when he rebelled so no everything is still gods fault (if he existed) also god created freewill so any decision made using freewill is gods fault (if he existed) sorry he doesn't get to be the creator and avoid the responsibility when things go wrong.

Have you read Revelations yet?

A) It's the book of revelation. I've lost count of the numbers of christians who don't know the bible so I can't telly what number you are, unless you're a sock.

B) Yes I have read it, it's a good illustration of a drug induced nightmare and worth reading the once for that.

(May 4, 2022 at 6:34 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 4:54 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:  Would you choose not to protect a man from someone who took his possessions, his health, and killed his family?  That's not even the problem of suffering, that's active complicity.

Assault in progress, what do you do?

I study self-defense for this purpose, I would like to be able to stop an assault in progress and help protect innocent lives if I can.

Of course I don't treat the creator the same way that I would treat a man or an animal. So I wouldn't try to fight YHWH if he were attacking an innocent person, but I would at the least pray about it and be curios as to why he would do such a thing.

Is it possible that an omnipotent being can come to conclusions which are alien to our own understanding?

It seems that most people here are more upset with God than Job is despite only reading of his suffering but having never experienced exactly what he went through.

I knew this would be a difficult topic when I started it, and so far I am not disappointed by the response I've gotten. Ultimately you either trust God to do what he will with his creation or you don't, but I believe that an eternal reward is what makes all of this suffering truly worthwhile. Even if we lived in a fair world where the righteous prosper and those who do evil always get punished; what would any of our labor amount to if our destiny is dust? Our physical bodies are destined to return to this Earth at some point and nothing we build, save or work for is ever guaranteed to last forever. 

What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

(I know most of you are atheists so please just take the last two questions as hypotheticals.)

A question for you, what level of evil deserves eternal punishment? To my mind honest disbelief, which is no evil, deserves none. Yet your "holy" "book" insists on eternal torture.

How can you justify such monstrous evil?

(May 4, 2022 at 6:34 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 4:54 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:  Would you choose not to protect a man from someone who took his possessions, his health, and killed his family?  That's not even the problem of suffering, that's active complicity.

Assault in progress, what do you do?

I study self-defense for this purpose, I would like to be able to stop an assault in progress and help protect innocent lives if I can.

Of course I don't treat the creator the same way that I would treat a man or an animal. So I wouldn't try to fight YHWH if he were attacking an innocent person, but I would at the least pray about it and be curios as to why he would do such a thing.

-and there's you, certifying in advance your own moral failure, as dictated by your beliefs...but also that your religious beliefs and your actual day to day beliefs are completely unaligned.  Let's just hope that you don't witness an assault after a bad plate of shrimp makes you hallucinate gods, huh?

Quote:Is it possible that an omnipotent being can come to conclusions which are alien to our own understanding?

It seems that most people here are more upset with God than Job is despite only reading of his suffering but having never experienced exactly what he went through.

I knew this would be a difficult topic when I started it, and so far I am not disappointed by the response I've gotten. Ultimately you either trust God to do what he will with his creation or you don't, but I believe that an eternal reward is what makes all of this suffering truly worthwhile. Even if we lived in a fair world where the righteous prosper and those who do evil always get punished; what would any of our labor amount to if our destiny is dust? Our physical bodies are destined to return to this Earth at some point and nothing we build, save or work for is ever guaranteed to last forever. 

What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

(I know most of you are atheists so please just take the last two questions as hypotheticals.)

Trust?  Who needs trust?  God actively fucked job in the story - he can give him all the lollipops he wants after the fact - in this life or the next..but that won't change that fact.  It's not something I could bring myself to do, so it's a pretty direct line from that to the fact that I wouldn't worship a god that did it.  

I've heard that some murderers are sometimes very remorseful, and also do things to try and make it up to the families of their victims.  I rate your gods paradise no higher than that..but you and I both know it's alot shittier.  It's got a pretty exclusive guest list.  God is not contrite.

Meanwhile, this notion that things are worthless unless they're eternal? Speaking of alien conclusions, that one's entirely alien to me. I'm not willing to be a dirtbag to get some item just because it lasts forever. That would only amount to eternal shame, for me. Nothing to do with atheism, merely that I possess a strong moral character which you..according to you..in the presence of your god, could not. That's the great pity of a transactional faith. You want the thing some evil being offers, and you'll debase yourself for it, and you know it.

Tell me how anyone could trust turning their back to you? What wouldn't you do to me or anyone else, or be willing to passively watch done to me or anyone else, for punch and pie in the sky?

(May 4, 2022 at 6:00 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 5:46 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Well, hell, I guess I should have gone to an exorcist instead of doctors.

What a crock.

I am one of those fools who believes not only in demons but also in miracles. No I don't think that you should refuse to go to a medical professional, but I don't see how praying to an imaginary sky daddy for healing could possibly hurt anything. 

Have you ever read The Case for Miracles by Lee Strobel?

No I haven't read the book you mention.

And praying and hoping for a miracle isn't what was needed.  Time was of the essence.  I had doctors to see, procedures to endure, and looking up info to make good decisions as well as making plans if things didn't work out.

The all-knowing god should have known what was needed or he could have just not caused it in the first place.

Prayer would have been a waste of valuable time and effort.  I have nearly 13  years clear and didn't call on imaginary sky fairies for guidance or help.  

I would have been calmer had my aunt (a nurse) and my dad (a veterinarian) has not both died earlier the same year as my diagnosis.  But I think I choose the right path.  No gods needed.

(May 4, 2022 at 6:05 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 5:41 pm)Helios Wrote: God created Satan and didn't slay him when he rebelled so no everything is still gods fault (if he existed) also god created freewill so any decision made using freewill is gods fault (if he existed) sorry he doesn't get to be the creator and avoid the responsibility when things go wrong.

Have you read Revelations yet?

Yup and it in no way refutes my point 

Quote:I am one of those fools who believes not only in demons but also in miracles. No I don't think that you should refuse to go to a medical professional, but I don't see how praying to an imaginary sky daddy for healing could possibly hurt anything. 

Have you ever read The Case for Miracles by Lee Strobel?

Lee Strobel is a moronic propagandist

Quote:Is it possible that an omnipotent being can come to conclusions which are alien to our own understanding?

Using unknowability as an excuse to not have an answer...Fail

Quote:It seems that most people here are more upset with God than Job is despite only reading of his suffering but having never experienced exactly what he went through.

He shouldn't have had to go through any period and there is simply no justification for it 

Quote:I knew this would be a difficult topic when I started it, and so far I am not disappointed by the response I've gotten. Ultimately you either trust God to do what he will with his creation or you don't, but I believe that an eternal reward is what makes all of this suffering truly worthwhile. Even if we lived in a fair world where the righteous prosper and those who do evil always get punished; what would any of our labor amount to if our destiny is dust? Our physical bodies are destined to return to this Earth at some point and nothing we build, save or work for is ever guaranteed to last forever. 

Life isn't about rewards and good and bad are not about rewards.

Quote:What amount of pain is worth eternal paradise? What perishing thing can I lose or gain that would deter me from pursuing that which can never perish? 

The idea that people need to suffer to have paradise in the first place (the concept of paradise itself an abhorrence ) is simply evil

I don't think the book is centrally about the virtues of unwavering faith. That's more of a sub-theme.

What I got from Job was more a lesson about hubris... "man thinking he can understand God and his motivations"...

We, as readers get a sneak peak at the celestial events that led up to Job's tribulations. But Job and his friends have no idea what's going on. Their speeches, even Job's, all make incorrect guesses about what God is doing.

God's speech isn't about how wonderful it is that Job was able to keep his faith. It was an admonishment. He told Job he can't even begin to comprehend the machinations of the divine. (Again, anti-hubris). The epilogue where Job receives lottery winnings was just to portray the God character as being good natured.