And the question is: is Lia Thomas an outlier for trans athletes or not? That’s the real question that needs to be answered. When there’s literally thousands of trans athletes out there, singling out a few who keep breaking records isn’t going to cut it.

(June 3, 2022 at 5:01 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: And the question is: is Lia Thomas an outlier for trans athletes or not? That’s the real question that needs to be answered. When there’s literally thousands of trans athletes out there, singling out a few who keep breaking records isn’t going to cut it.

So you're ready to concede that Lia Thomas would not have been breaking records on the men's team and be the best in the world on the men's team, and that transitioning is an advantage? Good, because I thought we were making our way to crazy land there if you had refused to recognize the beyond obvious.

If someone really sucks as a man and can't make the men's team, but then transitions and can make the women's league, then clearly transitioning has given them an advantage. This is a trans person who does not belong in any top league. If they want to play in a lower league or just play on their off time for fun, or in a trans league when they eventually have enough players for that, then cool, but even if they are not that good and get smoked by the better cis women, that trans women is still stealing a spot away from a bio woman, and bio women 100 % should take priority over trans women, because female sports were literally created for bio women, not for people who identify as women. Identity never came into play, nor should it have ever come into play. Like Destiny says, is it cool for him to join a league playing against 10 year olds just because he's not better than every ten year old in the world, or should we say, no, this league was made for 10 year olds, so no Destiny, we're not going to let you join the team, because that's ridiculous.

Do you seriously believe that trans athletes make the decision to transition just so they can have a better chance at winning competitions?

(June 3, 2022 at 1:00 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Do you seriously believe that trans athletes make the decision to transition just so they can have a better chance at winning competitions?

No I don't and that point is irrelevant to my argument anyhow. Their motivation is irrelevant to the reality that they are stealing a spot from a cis woman.

Just like cis women also "steal" these oh so lucrative spots from other women. Is this another one of those things where you think some right which doesn't exist applies? What's this "we" shit...? Are you the commissioner of a sports league of some kind? Such that "we" can decide who does and doesn't get to play with whom at what? Howsabout "we" get our hands off other peoples property - instead of advocating for the abrogation of actual rights?

Why were women's sports created in the first place? Was it due to sex, or identification?

If it's in the rules that trans women can compete, then fine, let them compete. They are not monsters for competing. I'm advocating for those rules to change though, and who I'm criticizing is not necessarily the athletes themselves, but the rule makers and the activists. Just because there are rules allowing trans to compete, that doesn't make it right. Slavery was also legally allowed at one point in time, so an appeal to the law or official rules doesn't mean much, really. Competing in college sports or pro sports should be a privilege that is earned, not a right that is given out to whomever.

It basically comes down to this, as this transgender law center puts it; One reason: Sporting events are zero-sum competitions in which only one individual or team can win, meaning that “people resist and dismiss our calls for sports policies that benefit our collective good, the core of a Race Class Gender Narrative.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/202...e-transge/

The trans activists basically admit here that their goal is the common good, which we should all care about obviously, but they are willing to put the totality of the "common good" over the competitiveness and fairness of sports. They're willing to sacrifice women's sports for the common good, but are not first willing to ask cis women if that's ok with them. The overwhelming majority of people are not willing to say that cis women should have to make that sacrifice though and this issue is a big loser., and this does not make people who think women's sports should be cis women's sports bad people, because you're pitting one group against another (yes, trans women are women, but a different kind of woman, otherwise there would be no need for the existence of the word trans in the first place as a category of woman. Trans woman is a sub category under woman), and forcing them to either throw cis women under the bus or trans women under the bus, and calling them Nazis when they don't make the call you would have made. People are just in a tough spot because you have to throw one group under the bus no matter what.

Just a couple of points of information. Lia Thomas is not the best in the world among female swimmers so pointing out that she was not the best in the world prior to transitioning simply shows your inability to keep relevant facts straight. Second, Lia Thomas was in fact an elite class swimmer prior to her transitioning and while not at the very top overall, was among the best in the nation and posted the sixth fastest men's time in the 1,000-yard freestyle. It would take considerable research to determine how her pre-transition performance as a male athlete compares to her post-transition performance as a female athlete, but it doesn't require any real deep-dive to see that you are basically pulling shit out of your ass.

(June 3, 2022 at 3:14 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Why were women's sports created in the first place? Was it due to sex, or identification?

Neither.  Merchandising and profit.

Quote:If it's in the rules that trans women can compete, then fine, let them compete. They are not monsters for competing. I'm advocating for those rules to change though, and who I'm criticizing is not necessarily the athletes themselves, but the rule makers and the activists. Just because there are rules allowing trans to compete, that doesn't make it right. Slavery was also legally allowed at one point in time, so an appeal to the law or official rules doesn't mean much, really. Competing in college sports or pro sports should be a privilege that is earned, not a right that is given out to whomever.

Sure, it's just like slavery................college sports, I mean, male or female.  

Quote:The trans activists basically admit here that their goal is the common good, which we should all care about obviously, but they are willing to put the totality of the "common good" over the competitiveness and fairness of sports. They're willing to sacrifice women's sports for the common good, but are not first willing to ask cis women if that's ok with them. The overwhelming majority of people are not willing to say that cis women should have to make that sacrifice though and this issue is a big loser., and this does not make people who think women's sports should be cis women's sports bad people, because you're pitting one group against another (yes, trans women are women, but a different kind of woman, otherwise there would be no need for the existence of the word trans in the first place as a category of woman. Trans woman is a sub category under woman), and forcing them to either throw cis women under the bus or trans women under the bus, and calling them Nazis when they don't make the call you would have made. People are just in a tough spot because you have to throw one group under the bus no matter what.

Athletes haven't traditionally had much of a voice in their sports.  As you note, it's not a right, and in general....if players don't like a thing they can go find a different league or just not play.  The same is true for those leagues if the customers don't want to pay.  As rev explained a bit above, the leagues have looked into this (and you can too) - and being trans isn;t the performance enhancing state of affairs you imagine it to be - the main effect on sports with regards to whether or not trans people can compete is the effect to the organizers bottom line.

(June 3, 2022 at 5:14 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Just a couple of points of information. Lia Thomas is not the best in the world among female swimmers so pointing out that she was not the best in the world prior to transitioning simply shows your inability to keep relevant facts straight. Second, Lia Thomas was in fact an elite class swimmer prior to her transitioning and while not at the very top overall, was among the best in the nation and posted the sixth fastest men's time in the 1,000-yard freestyle. It would take considerable research to determine how her pre-transition performance as a male athlete compares to her post-transition performance as a female athlete, but it doesn't require any real deep-dive to see that you are basically pulling shit out of your ass.

With hormones you lose body mass in the form of muscle mass. With swimming, I suppose it's a tradeoff, less muscle mass versus less surface area. Bur, I'm no expert.

(June 3, 2022 at 8:41 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(June 3, 2022 at 5:14 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Just a couple of points of information. Lia Thomas is not the best in the world among female swimmers so pointing out that she was not the best in the world prior to transitioning simply shows your inability to keep relevant facts straight. Second, Lia Thomas was in fact an elite class swimmer prior to her transitioning and while not at the very top overall, was among the best in the nation and posted the sixth fastest men's time in the 1,000-yard freestyle. It would take considerable research to determine how her pre-transition performance as a male athlete compares to her post-transition performance as a female athlete, but it doesn't require any real deep-dive to see that you are basically pulling shit out of your ass.

With hormones you lose body mass in the form of muscle mass. With swimming, I suppose it's a tradeoff, less muscle mass versus less surface area. Bur, I'm no expert.

And, funny thing, when I was looking up Lia Thomas and reading her Wikipedia article, they actually pointed out that when she started transitioning, she actually lost muscle mass and strength due to the hormones and testosterone suppression.