Hi,

There are several things around the atheist position that I cannot grasp and would like to understand:

1. Many atheists get frustrated when their view is stated to be a belief, yet openly admit they do not know a God/god (in any form) does not exist. So why be annoyed when your view is described as a belief?

2. If your view is inactive and the burden of proof is on the theist believer, why congregate under the atheist banner? Is it an attempt to expose theists to a rational perspective? Is it to find solace from the outside theistic world?

I don’t follow what the purpose of the atheist is. I don’t believe in many things yet take no active involvement in denying these things (bigfoot, santa....). Is it due to the sheer number of people and resulting actions who do believe in a God/god that requires some form of response by atheists?

Cheers.

Quote:1. Many atheists get frustrated when their view is stated to be a belief, yet openly admit they do not know a God/god (in any form) does not exist. So why be annoyed when your view is described as a belief?

Because it's not a belief. A lack of one. Theists claim there is a god and as an atheist I reject that claim. No belief, no claim made. Simple rejection.

Quote:2. If your view is inactive and the burden of proof is on the theist believer, why congregate under the atheist banner? Is it an attempt to expose theists to a rational perspective? Is it to find solace from the outside theistic world?

Well I'm in a very secular society, there is no need for any action on my part to hide or find a place that lacks theists. In some countries and societies, you may find religious intolerance to be a bit heavy and so looking for a place of like minded individuals becomes needed.

Quote:I don’t follow what the purpose of the atheist is.

For for me, there is no purpose as an atheist. I live my life like any other. No religious rule to follow, no expectations. An atheist is simply one without belief in god. That's about it. If you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. Ta-da!

Your first mistake is assuming there is some collective atheist purpose.

Some atheists are anti-theists and want to rid the world of religion. Some are just atheists and don't give a shit either way. What brings atheists together in a place like this can't even really be put under one banner. What most atheists do share is a wish to be treated fairly - like human beings - without having to cater to someone else's beliefs.

Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of beliefs. So when someone says "oh, that's what you believe" it's really fucking annoying. No. I don't believe it. I don't believe there is a god. I don't know everything, though, so maybe one of my bushes will burst into flame, who knows. But whether someone claims there is a god or claims there's a unicorn eating my rosemary, they have to prove it to me or I'm under no obligation to go along with their shenanigans. It's an empty hole, not a hole filled with definitive opinions. You see the difference?

Not all atheists are rational people. You'll do better going to a skeptic forum if you're looking for people who congregate for rationalism.

I, personally, take active involvement in denying bullshit because some of it is downright dangerous. I don't limit myself to religious bullshit though. It also causes inequality - when you're being discriminated against because you're not subscribing to someone's particular brand of BS, regardless of whether or not you're a fantastic, capable, and motivated human being otherwise, that's wrong.

1. Because it is not a belief. It is a disbelief.

2. Why congregate under the atheist banner? Because we're atheists and it's human nature to gather 'round with like minded people. Why do you ask stupid fucking questions?

We have every right to respond to theistic bullshit. We all have different purposes. Atheism is not a fucking worldview.

---

I love it when the gang pounces on shit like this, btw.

(December 4, 2011 at 4:36 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:1. Many atheists get frustrated when their view is stated to be a belief, yet openly admit they do not know a God/god (in any form) does not exist. So why be annoyed when your view is described as a belief?

Quote:Because it's not a belief. A lack of one. Theists claim there is a god and as an atheist I reject that claim. No belief, no claim made. Simple rejection.

If you don’t know something to be true yet still consider it to be correct then you must believe it, whether it’s a belief in something or a belief in non-belief is irrelevant.

To reject a claim, you would require some form of justification which is based on either knowledge or belief.

Quote:2. If your view is inactive and the burden of proof is on the theist believer, why congregate under the atheist banner? Is it an attempt to expose theists to a rational perspective? Is it to find solace from the outside theistic world?

Quote:Well I'm in a very secular society, there is no need for any action on my part to hide or find a place that lacks theists. In some countries and societies, you may find religious intolerance to be a bit heavy and so looking for a place of like minded individuals becomes needed.

I am in a very secular society as well and find atheism superfluous, unless it provides some form of outlet for someone hounded by religion.

Quote:I don’t follow what the purpose of the atheist is.

Quote:For for me, there is no purpose as an atheist. I live my life like any other. No religious rule to follow, no expectations. An atheist is simply one without belief in god. That's about it. If you don't believe in god, you're an atheist. Ta-da!

Exactly, so why are you here?

(December 4, 2011 at 4:28 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: Hi,

There are several things around the atheist position that I cannot grasp and would like to understand:

1. Many atheists get frustrated when their view is stated to be a belief, yet openly admit they do not know a God/god (in any form) does not exist. So why be annoyed when your view is described as a belief?

As others have stated, it's not a belief. I like to say that I don't have beliefs, I have rational conclusions based on evidence. And, since there is ZERO evidence for the claim that a deity exists, I conclude that deities are imaginary.

Quote:2. If your view is inactive and the burden of proof is on the theist believer, why congregate under the atheist banner? Is it an attempt to expose theists to a rational perspective? Is it to find solace from the outside theistic world?

I come here because it's refreshing to be around like minded people. Where I live atheists are very much the minority. Also, I pick up good ammo here to use on the fanatics when they come knocking on my door.

Quote:I don’t follow what the purpose of the atheist is. I don’t believe in many things yet take no active involvement in denying these things (bigfoot, santa....). Is it due to the sheer number of people and resulting actions who do believe in a God/god that requires some form of response by atheists?

There is no "purpose" to being an atheist. It is simply a lack of belief. As for speaking out, I do so because religious zealots are VERY LOUD in proclaiming their beliefs. They also want to legislate their beliefs into law which I find dangerous. I don't want a society where a woman can't get an abortion, or have bullshit taught to school kids under the guise of "Intelligent Design".

WOO HOO!

One thousandth post! I get an award!

(December 4, 2011 at 4:38 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: Your first mistake is assuming there is some collective atheist purpose.

Some atheists are anti-theists and want to rid the world of religion. Some are just atheists and don't give a shit either way. What brings atheists together in a place like this can't even really be put under one banner. What most atheists do share is a wish to be treated fairly - like human beings - without having to cater to someone else's beliefs.

I am agnostic and can understand that, but unless another’s views were imposed on me and I was retaliating to it. I can’t see any merit in being an atheist. Why would I rebel against something which has no impact on me?

Quote:Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of beliefs. So when someone says "oh, that's what you believe" it's really fucking annoying. No. I don't believe it. I don't believe there is a god. I don't know everything, though, so maybe one of my bushes will burst into flame, who knows. But whether someone claims there is a god or claims there's a unicorn eating my rosemary, they have to prove it to me or I'm under no obligation to go along with their shenanigans. It's an empty hole, not a hole filled with definitive opinions. You see the difference?

I know atheists find it annoying. I assure I’m not trying to be annoying, I’ve just never heard an answer which I find viable to not consider it a belief. Do you believe that you don’t believe there is a god, despite not knowing everything?

I find the claims of the unicorns, fsm,.. such a weak response to attempting to illustrate non-belief in something. I see the difference it just makes no sense to me. I know I don’t know anything and in the absence of evidence make no commitment either way.

Quote:Not all atheists are rational people. You'll do better going to a skeptic forum if you're looking for people who congregate for rationalism.

Interesting, many atheists claim their rationalism compels them to be an atheist.

Quote:I, personally, take active involvement in denying bullshit because some of it is downright dangerous. I don't limit myself to religious bullshit though. It also causes inequality - when you're being discriminated against because you're not subscribing to someone's particular brand of BS, regardless of whether or not you're a fantastic, capable, and motivated human being otherwise, that's wrong.

Quote:If you don’t know something to be true yet still consider it to be correct then you must believe it, whether it’s a belief in something or a belief in non-belief is irrelevant.

Lack of belief is belief in non belief? Huh? You crazy?
I have rejected the claim that theists have put forth. I don't believe in this god they speak of. I don't need to justify anything. I have no burden of proof. I've got it easy. Since I'm not claiming anything. A theist claims a god exists, I reject that claim on the basis that it makes no sense and lacks evidence. That's it. Nothing more to it.

Quote:To reject a claim, you would require some form of justification which is based on either knowledge or belief.

Not really. If you are interested in my reasons for rejecting theist claims it is because of a lack of evidence. Also how is a lack of belief = a belief?

Quote:Exactly, so why are you here?

Why not? I like to chat with like minded individuals. Also I love these guys. They're like a family to me.

(December 4, 2011 at 4:40 pm)aleialoura Wrote: 1. Because it is not a belief. It is a disbelief.

Your disbelief is a product of your view, you cannot formulate it in isolation. Unless you have knowledge to justify disbelief, what absolves your disbelief from being a belief? Just being a disbelief, does not mean it exists in its own right.

Quote:2. Why congregate under the atheist banner? Because we're atheists and it's human nature to gather 'round with like minded people. Why do you ask stupid fucking questions?

Simplistic. When I talk to people who cannot justify why they think like they do, I apply the "when in rome" principle".

Quote:We have every right to respond to theistic bullshit. We all have different purposes. Atheism is not a fucking worldview.

You just sound angry. Do you have anything to say? if not, just continue to rant.

(December 4, 2011 at 4:28 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: 1. Many atheists get frustrated when their view is stated to be a belief, yet openly admit they do not know a God/god (in any form) does not exist. So why be annoyed when your view is described as a belief?

I imagine its the same reason why many get frustrated with people's misconception that The Big Bang theory is supposed to provide an explanation for the origin of the universe. It does not. The model explains its early evolution. Likewise, theists propagating false ideas that on the subject of gods' existence inclusively and exclusively, and asserting that atheism, the lack of belief, is a belief is not simply inaccurate - this is factually wrong and such an error cannot go uncorrected.

Its not so much that they're wrong that annoys us though. Everyone is wrong at same point or other in their lives. That's life for you. Its the fact that they're overbearingly ignorant of the definition of the word "atheism" yet mindlessly regurgitate the term non-stop as if they already know what its meaning is without taking the time to actually learn it first.

One of life's lessons: Never use words you cannot pronounce or understand lest you want ridicule and humiliation from your peers.

Quote:2. If your view is inactive and the burden of proof is on the theist believer, why congregate under the atheist banner? Is it an attempt to expose theists to a rational perspective? Is it to find solace from the outside theistic world?

Well, banners are used to convey ideas or principles and with them rally public opinion or protest. We're not under a banner, although some have tried with the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster, but these belong in satire only. We don't identify ourselves with a "lack of belief", we are simply trying to let vulnerable people out there who are going through turmoil, thanks to theists, know that 'You're not alone'. 'There are communities with others out there like you who also don't believe in religious dogma.'

We are trying to make people 'wake-up' and realise that atheism is not dangerous, its no threat and is not to be equated with devil-worshippers who want to destroy everything believers cherish (though ironically many of them actually want this world to be destroyed via Divine Judgement or other, but that's another story). We want to be supportive to all those facing oppressive and difficult times by promoting positive atheism.

Quote:I don’t follow what the purpose of the atheist is. I don’t believe in many things yet take no active involvement in denying these things (bigfoot, santa....). Is it due to the sheer number of people and resulting actions who do believe in a God/god that requires some form of response by atheists?

There is no 'purpose', because my atheism says nothing about me as an individual. Neither does someone else's theism tell you anything about their personality, character, hobbies, interests, likes, dislikes, accomplishments or failures.

Atheism is simply but one position, one response to a single claim - the belief in god or gods as unproven to be true and not sufficiently met their burden of proof.

To find out more about me all you have to do is... ask. Same with running any line of enquiry with any other human being I suppose. Naturally I have the right not to discuss some aspects about my personal life, and the person asking should respect my privacy on some sensitive subjects. Anonymity on the Internet is one reason behind its world-wide success.