I think we may have found at least one source of disconnect. It's true that stalin was a peice of shit and we helped keep him propped up with that aid, but if the soviet union had been ruled by a decent person who wasnt..lets say a zelensky type..for shits and giggles..they'd have still needed that assistance.

I think I hit on a good proposal. We can abandon ukraine to a contemporary hitler/stalin just as soon as we toss 180b at them? Gives them a chance, eh? Same chance we gave russia, for all the good that did ukraine....

I just don't understand why we seem to be told that we have to abandon a commitment to human life and human rights....for the cause of human life and human rights? Why we have so many people positing some terrible thing as though it were difficult to stop, or even inevitable, and that this turns into an argument -against- trying our best to prevent it? That we have to describe a pretty cut and dry example of being on the right side of a thing..for a change... as some dirty proxy war. It's bonkers, to me.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:15 pm)Helios Wrote: Considering Hitlers goal was to kill ALL the Slavic peoples i would say Hitler still the bigger dick here. Thus the idea his invasion of the Soviet Union was a good thing is very off.

It was a dumb move that helped the Allies defeat him while helping to keep Stalin, another murderous tyrant, at bay.

Not really in fact it pretty much empowered Stalin and gave him half of Europe so even tactically it wasn't good. It also made the Germans far more willing to fight to the death to avoid Soviet retribution.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:01 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Stalin, after the "liberation" of various German death camps, began using them for his own extermination program. How many human beings did he murder as compared to Hitler?

Quite a few more than Zelensky...in fact, a good number of the folks stalin murdered were...ukranians..... 

Why do you ask?

To sometimes achieve victory against one enemy means arming their enemy. Without a doubt, Hitler's war against Stalin helped the West in defeating Hitler.

As with respect to Ukraine, I, as an American, do not wish the United States to pay $1 trillion in what I believe will be a vain attempt to defeat Russia. Again, an observation of others allowing their desires to shape their beliefs.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:22 pm)Helios Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It was a dumb move that helped the Allies defeat him while helping to keep Stalin, another murderous tyrant, at bay.

Not really in fact it pretty much empowered Stalin and gave him half of Europe so even tactically it wasn't good. It also made the Germans far more willing to fight to the death to avoid Soviet retribution.

How many German soldiers died on the Eastern front?

(November 7, 2022 at 2:23 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:22 pm)Helios Wrote: Not really in fact it pretty much empowered Stalin and gave him half of Europe so even tactically it wasn't good. It also made the Germans far more willing to fight to the death to avoid Soviet retribution.

How many German soldiers died on the Eastern front?

Not enough to stop Stalin from getting to Berlin first.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:24 pm)Helios Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:23 pm)Jehanne Wrote: How many German soldiers died on the Eastern front?

Not enough to stop Stalin from getting to Berlin first.

And, Germany surrendered to the Allied Powers?

(November 7, 2022 at 2:22 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Quite a few more than Zelensky...in fact, a good number of the folks stalin murdered were...ukranians..... 

Why do you ask?

To sometimes achieve victory against one enemy means arming their enemy.  Without a doubt, Hitler's war against Stalin helped the West in defeating Hitler.

As with respect to Ukraine, I, as an American, do not wish the United States to pay $1 trillion in what I believe will be a vain attempt to defeat Russia.  Again, an observation of others allowing their desires to shape their beliefs.

Even if that assertion weren't shaky on the grounds of mere reality in ukraine, that would seem like a rough pill to me. Russia obviously doesn't believe it's a vain attempt, eh? Hence the whole proxy war bit of bullshit. But so what if it were? We fail trying to do good rather than resign ourselves to a comfortable evil? What's the point of being able to help, or even try to help, if we won't?

It seems, to me, like the fuck you got mine theory of human civilization..and, in my experience, that's how everyone ends up with nothing.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:22 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:16 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Quite a few more than Zelensky...in fact, a good number of the folks stalin murdered were...ukranians..... 

Why do you ask?

To sometimes achieve victory against one enemy means arming their enemy.  Without a doubt, Hitler's war against Stalin helped the West in defeating Hitler.

As with respect to Ukraine, I, as an American, do not wish the United States to pay $1 trillion in what I believe will be a vain attempt to defeat Russia.  Again, an observation of others allowing their desires to shape their beliefs.

1. Except at the time American-Soviet relations were actually pretty cordial and again the Eastern Fronts' effect is often overstated.

2. Except it's not in vain and a Trillion dollars is chicken feed to the wealthiest nation on earth to stop another country from losing its sovereignty. And no one's desires are shaping beliefs here.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:26 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 7, 2022 at 2:24 pm)Helios Wrote: Not enough to stop Stalin from getting to Berlin first.

And, Germany surrendered to the Allied Powers?

And half of Europe was taken over by the Soviets.

(November 7, 2022 at 2:29 pm)Helios Wrote: 2. Too bad it's not in vain and a Trillion dollars is chicken feed to the wealthiest nation on earth. And no one's desires are shaping beliefs here.

-a rounding error in our defense budget - one that we and many others are getting a whole hell of alot out of - though that does seem to get lost in denying ukraine agency and credit and pretending that russian victory is..basically, a law of the universe..... 

Show of hands, does anyone here think china isn't watching this thinking that they just -might- need to come up with a better plan should they ever pull the trigger on their own territorial ambitions? Obviously, putin believed that western support could be quickly collapsed..and it may yet be collapsed, no doubt about that...but it's already lasted too long, from the other end, to have made the plan they went in with credible.