(August 23, 2023 at 6:30 am)GrandizerII Wrote:

(August 23, 2023 at 5:46 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: That's exactly wrong. Suicides happen because living becomes too hard.

I just can't imagine that someone who believes (objectively or subjectively) that nothing matters, nothing counts for anything, and - in extreme cases - nothing even exists, wouldn't descend into a maelstrom of depression and despair that ended with them taking their own life.

Boru

It takes a combination of factors that go beyond just feeling life is too hard or experiencing some existential crisis to be driven to commit suicide. Our instinct to keep going is generally quite strong.

And suicide is not something that just usually happens on the spot. Often times, a lot of physical and mental preparation needs to be made in order to take one's own life.

But if living was always easier, suicides would never happen.

Boru

(August 23, 2023 at 6:47 am)Ahriman Wrote: Physical harm can't really be counted as "objective harm", because physical harm doesn't always affect the core identity of the person being harmed, meaning, that physical harm might not cause its victim any sort of emotional distress, thus not really "harming" the person, only the person's body. Even if the victim does feel emotional distress as a result of being physically harmed, it can't be considered an "objective harm", because their emotional distress is subjective.

Physical harm here means bodily harm. Not sure your objection here works.

(August 23, 2023 at 7:14 am)GrandizerII Wrote:

(August 23, 2023 at 6:47 am)Ahriman Wrote: Physical harm can't really be counted as "objective harm", because physical harm doesn't always affect the core identity of the person being harmed, meaning, that physical harm might not cause its victim any sort of emotional distress, thus not really "harming" the person, only the person's body. Even if the victim does feel emotional distress as a result of being physically harmed, it can't be considered an "objective harm", because their emotional distress is subjective.

Physical harm here means bodily harm. Not sure your objection here works.

I’m have trouble imagining a man who lost both legs in a car crash not being ‘harmed’.

Boru

(August 23, 2023 at 5:22 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It's a source of amusement to me that the suicide rate among nihilists isn't through the roof.

Boru

Depends on the nihilistic views held. It is gloomy, but so are the vast majority of views. The type of nihilism I hold to isn't so gloomy that I can't enjoy life.

(August 23, 2023 at 7:19 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(August 23, 2023 at 5:22 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It's a source of amusement to me that the suicide rate among nihilists isn't through the roof.

Boru

Depends on the nihilistic views held.  It is gloomy, but so are the vast majority of views.  The type of nihilism I hold to isn't so gloomy that I can't enjoy life.

I understand, but the suicide rate among nihilists overall doesn’t appear to be markedly different from that of the general population. It leads me to think that at least some self-described nihilists (not you) aren’t nearly as nihilistic as they’d like people to believe. They claim nihilism to be edgy, they like the cachet they term carries.

Boru

Entirely possible.
Or it could just be that nihilism isn't that depressing.
Like, it's less depressing than thinking billions of people are in hell, including your own loved ones.
And believing that morality doesn't exist removes all guilt and shame.
And not believing in God or the supernatural isn't too bad, and has upsides.
Etc.

(August 23, 2023 at 7:47 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Entirely possible.
Or it could just be that nihilism isn't that depressing.
Like, it's less depressing than thinking billions of people are in hell, including your own loved ones.

Well yeah, maybe it's depressing/disturbing but not enough to drive one to commit suicide. I don't see how we should expect a markedly higher suicide rate among nihilists compared to the general population.

Anecdotally, I personally hold to a very disturbing worldview, or rather a worldview with very disturbing implications. The worst that happened to me as a result is that I had an existential crisis for a week or two, and then I was finally able to move on with life. I never once thought about committing suicide as a result.

When I was a Calvinist Evangelical and believed billions and billions of unelect people, including babies, were doomed to infinite torture I wept every night. But I still didn't kill myself. When I've been driven to the brink of suicide it was for more personal reasons. Humans are weird.

@Belacqua

Is nuking Paris for fun bad?

It seems to me there is no way to ground morality in anything other than a subjective assessment by an agent, thus it has no objective quality, there is no correct answer as it isn't really a T/F statement asking about reality.

You saying that nuking Laris for fun cannot be good is simply the same as you saying that you feel a strong internal repugnant against the act and against calling it good. The moral language game is just a sophisticated and linguistically embedded discussion of personal preferences and emotions. One person likes chocolate, another likes vanilla, another likes nuking cities, another doesn't.

It's all just feels. Very strong commonly shared feels. But ultimately just feels.

There should be a rule against nihilism.