(May 16, 2024 at 1:31 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: As it is written, The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the debater of this age?

IF your faith is based on evidence then why not provide some?

Or do Christians have more than enough evidence to believe in Christ?

How long will you present me with nothing but dogma?

What idiot wrote that nonsense?

Boru

(May 16, 2024 at 1:00 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: Mara Bar Samrion, "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. Wat advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given."

What the hell is he talking about? Athens didn’t suffer any famine or pestilence after Socrates’ death. Pythagoras was never burned by the people of Samos; he left it in 530 B.C.E. and had a long life afterwards in the Greek colonies of Croton and Metapontum in what is now Italy. Likewise, the island of Samos was never “covered with sand” or “with the sea” - in an hour or otherwise. And what does he mean when he says Pythagoras did not die “because of the statue of Hera”? None of the “facts” given in this passage are correct, and some are completely baffling!

(May 16, 2024 at 1:57 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(May 16, 2024 at 1:00 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: Mara Bar Samrion, "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. Wat advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given."

What the  hell is he talking about? Athens didn’t suffer any famine or pestilence after Socrates’ death. Pythagoras was never burned by the people of Samos; he left it in  530 B.C.E. and had a long life afterwards in  the Greek colonies of Croton and Metapontum  in what is now Italy.  Likewise, the island of Samos was  never “covered with sand” or “with the sea” - in an hour or otherwise.  And what does he mean when he  says  Pythagoras did not die “because of  the statue of  Hera”?  None of the “facts”  given in this passage  are correct, and  some  are  completely baffling!

In addition, there’s widespread disagreement as to whether bar Serapion was referring to Jesus at all, or even if the letter is genuine.

Boru

"The textual variations in copies of the New Testament are a lot more severe than you seem to think. Estimates - among both religious and secular scholars - range between 200 000 and 400 000." - Boru

And if there was only one copy of the gospel of Mark then how many variations would there be?

"in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, there are 5,500 or so manuscripts; from complete manuscripts to fragmentary copies. 5,500, so that's a lot, that's more than we have for any other book in the ancient world." - Bart Ehrman

Is skepticism a new concept? Was Christianity not born out of controversy and doubt? Did the Jews not have every reason to contest Jesus ministry? What about the Romans, were they bias in favor of the sage that they crucified?

"On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover" Babylonian Talmud Compiled between 70 - 200 A.D.

(May 16, 2024 at 1:57 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(May 16, 2024 at 1:00 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: Mara Bar Samrion, "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. Wat advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given."

What the  hell is he talking about? Athens didn’t suffer any famine or pestilence after Socrates’ death. Pythagoras was never burned by the people of Samos; he left it in  530 B.C.E. and had a long life afterwards in  the Greek colonies of Croton and Metapontum  in what is now Italy.  Likewise, the island of Samos was  never “covered with sand” or “with the sea” - in an hour or otherwise.  And what does he mean when he  says  Pythagoras did not die “because of  the statue of  Hera”?  None of the “facts”  given in this passage  are correct, and  some  are  completely baffling!

How do you know that what you are saying is true?

(May 16, 2024 at 3:31 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: How do you know that what you are saying is true?

How do we know what you've been saying is 'true'? Truth can be subjective. What concrete evidence to support your belief can you provide?

(May 16, 2024 at 3:30 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: "The textual variations in copies of the New Testament are a lot more severe than you seem to think. Estimates - among both religious and secular scholars - range between 200 000 and 400 000." - Boru

And if there was only one copy of the gospel of Mark then how many variations would there be?

"in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, there are 5,500 or so manuscripts; from complete manuscripts to fragmentary copies. 5,500, so that's a lot, that's more than we have for any other book in the ancient world." - Bart Ehrman

Is skepticism a new concept? Was Christianity not born out of controversy and doubt? Did the Jews not have every reason to contest Jesus ministry? What about the Romans, were they bias in favor of the sage that they crucified?

"On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover" Babylonian Talmud Compiled between 70 - 200 A.D.

I’m not sure why you would quote the Babylonian Talmud. The Talmud says he was hanged the day before Passover. The Gospels says he was crucified on Passover. The Gospels make no mention of an heraldic announcement saying he would be stoned.

This doesn’t support your claims of scriptural accuracy.

Boru

There is a reason, while growing up, that secular history class did not include lessons on Jesus. Religious scripture tends to contain elements that are non-historical.

(May 16, 2024 at 4:04 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(May 16, 2024 at 3:30 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: "The textual variations in copies of the New Testament are a lot more severe than you seem to think. Estimates - among both religious and secular scholars - range between 200 000 and 400 000." - Boru

And if there was only one copy of the gospel of Mark then how many variations would there be?

"in Greek, the original language of the New Testament, there are 5,500 or so manuscripts; from complete manuscripts to fragmentary copies. 5,500, so that's a lot, that's more than we have for any other book in the ancient world." - Bart Ehrman

Is skepticism a new concept? Was Christianity not born out of controversy and doubt? Did the Jews not have every reason to contest Jesus ministry? What about the Romans, were they bias in favor of the sage that they crucified?

"On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover" Babylonian Talmud Compiled between 70 - 200 A.D.

I’m not sure why you would quote the Babylonian Talmud. The Talmud says he was hanged the day before Passover. The Gospels says he was crucified on Passover. The Gospels make no mention of an heraldic announcement saying he would be stoned.

This doesn’t support your claims of scriptural accuracy.

Boru

Are you going to agree with me that Jesus was hanged within 3 days of the Jewish Passover? Or is a minor disagreement enough to discredit us both.

Lets say that the heraldic announcement actually did happen, would the Gospels need to record it in order for them to be regarded as historically accurate?

Did the Gospels claim that there was no heraldic announcement?

Further beyond that point not all 4 biographies tell all the same stories, but when they do report the same stories the details are different. I'll be impressed if you can tell me why that might be the case.


Side-note: So are we just going to drop the part where you referenced Moby Dick? Or was that going somewhere.

(May 16, 2024 at 4:04 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: There is a reason, while growing up, that secular history class did not include lessons on Jesus. Religious scripture tends to contain elements that are non-historical.

Okay, so secular history class is your measuring stick? 

"They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and them then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind" - Pliny the Younger Roman author and administrator. in a letter to the Emperor Trajan in about 112 A.D.

My measure for what is historical is the ordinary, the natural. For a faith that is unnatural will see witches where history shows they were just ordinary women.