(July 1, 2024 at 8:00 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(July 1, 2024 at 7:02 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: The identity coincides with who they are in their minds.

It's interesting to see that we're getting away from the Enlightenment, scientistic idea that for us to consider something true, it must be confirmed through empirical and objective methods. 

Post-modern, post-Enlightenment views give more credence to what an individual mind holds to be true, even absent empirical confirmation.

You're an idiot.

(July 1, 2024 at 8:06 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Psychology is considered to be science, and typically one has to see a therapist before beginning the transition.

That's true. But seeing a therapist isn't something that confirms truth claims, is it? What objective standards does the therapist use to demonstrate that the person making the claim is in fact the gender they claim to be? 

I remember when I started posting on forums like this one, when the New Atheists were still new. At that time we talked a lot about what distinguishes science from other types of activity. One of the main aspects of science that people pointed to was falsifiability. The idea was that any truth claim must be falsifiable to be scientific, and if it's not falsifiable it's not science. 

Some people were pretty adamant about this, and went so far as to say that unfalsifiable truth claims were meaningless, or "illegitimate." 

At the time I was skeptical about such assertions. I think there may well be ways of speaking true things that are not falsifiable. Not all claims are scientific claims, and not all ways of knowing are science ways. 

Personal claims about gender are obviously not falsifiable. 

If someone who has the type of body which was traditionally associated with being female (boobs, uterus, two X chromosomes, the whole bit) says "I am male," then we accept that. There is no way to demonstrate in a scientific, objective, empirical way that they are not in fact male. So it's not falsifiable, and therefore it's not science. 

So I think we've identified a significant exception to the argument that used to get made so often -- that only falsifiable claims have truth value. Claims concerning a person's gender are to be taken as true, without the ability to show those claims to be false even in theory.

Kemi Badenoch demands apology from David Tennant after actor told her to ‘shut up’ on trans issues

......

The Labour candidate for Brent East, Dawn Butler then weighed in to support Tennant, writing: “Not all Black women think the same. I agree with David Tennant. That’s it, that’s the tweet.”

Bold: well, yeah, black people are getting stupider. The way a lot of them are going, conservatively, (like Clarence Thomas) they just won't be happy until they can start complaining about how they're being enslaved in this day and age.

Pink News

(July 2, 2024 at 8:46 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Kemi Badenoch demands apology from David Tennant after actor told her to ‘shut up’ on trans issues

......

The Labour candidate for Brent East, Dawn Butler then weighed in to support Tennant, writing: “Not all Black women think the same. I agree with David Tennant. That’s it, that’s the tweet.”

Bold: well, yeah, black people are getting stupider. The way a lot of them are going, conservatively, (like Clarence Thomas) they just won't be happy until they can start complaining about how they're being enslaved in this day and age.

Pink News

"black people are getting stupider." 

Are you sure you want to say that?

Absolutely.

Labour still haven't dealt with Momentum, as such they remain a non option.
It's no different than if the Republicans got rid of Trump but left MAGA in place, they would still be fascists.

(July 2, 2024 at 9:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(July 2, 2024 at 8:46 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Kemi Badenoch demands apology from David Tennant after actor told her to ‘shut up’ on trans issues

......

The Labour candidate for Brent East, Dawn Butler then weighed in to support Tennant, writing: “Not all Black women think the same. I agree with David Tennant. That’s it, that’s the tweet.”

Bold: well, yeah, black people are getting stupider. The way a lot of them are going, conservatively, (like Clarence Thomas) they just won't be happy until they can start complaining about how they're being enslaved in this day and age.

Pink News

"black people are getting stupider." 

Are you sure you want to say that?

Why is that any different than saying "White people are getting stupider"?

It's true.

(I'm an old white person.)

(July 1, 2024 at 8:06 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Psychology is considered to be science, and typically one has to see a therapist before beginning the transition.

Note: Even if you're looking for the harder sciences, here's a little factoid for you that's pretty well-researched: the brains of transwomen are actually closer to that of Cis Women than other Cis Men.

(July 3, 2024 at 1:40 pm)A. Secular Human Wrote:

(July 2, 2024 at 9:30 pm)Belacqua Wrote: "black people are getting stupider." 

Are you sure you want to say that?

Why is that any different than saying "White people are getting stupider"?

It's true.

(I'm an old white person.)

I'd always heard that making a blanket, all-inclusive negative judgment against a minority group of which you are not a member is bad form. 

But maybe manners have changed now.

(July 3, 2024 at 2:57 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(July 1, 2024 at 8:06 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: Psychology is considered to be science, and typically one has to see a therapist before beginning the transition.

Note: Even if you're looking for the harder sciences, here's a little factoid for you that's pretty well-researched: the brains of transwomen are actually closer to that of Cis Women than other Cis Men.

My best friend from high school is now a psychiatrist, and part of her job is doing the interviews that people have to get before they can do gender-reassignment surgery. She tells me that her role in the interview is NOT to determine what the person's gender is. She uses her extensive experience with mental and emotional disorders to determine whether the person seeking surgery is of sufficiently sound mind to make an irreversible life-altering decision. 

This is NOT to say that being trans is in any way a disorder. But, sad to say, some people aren't thinking straight. For example a bi-polar person in a manic phase may make decisions which are ill-considered. Such people shouldn't be making any major decision in that state -- even buying a house or a boat. I have no idea what percentage of re-assignment patients have any troubling mental condition. Probably no more than non-trans people. But that's still enough people that a doctor interview makes sense. 

As for the MRI study... It will be very interesting to watch as these are followed up on. The second paragraph of the paper you link to does let us know that a clear consensus is still missing on this subject. But this research is a start. 

Traditionally, gender was thought to be determined by anatomy. Now we no longer think this. 

So suppose these researchers discover some anatomical brain feature which is very strongly associated with gender. Either a physical structure in the brain or some pattern of electrical/chemical activity. Would that give the doctors a criterion by which they could falsify gender claims? 

In other words, suppose someone believes themselves to be male, but they have the anatomical brain feature associated with femaleness. Would the doctor then say, "I'm sorry, you're wrong. You have the female brain feature, therefore your belief that you are male is empirically, objectively, scientifically shown to be false."? Is THIS anatomical feature determinative, whereas the other ones (e.g. chromosomes) are not?

This is what I mean when I say that truth-claims about gender seem not to be falsifiable. At the moment, if someone claims to be female, and a doctor says "No, you are not female, and I know this because _______." Is there any possible language which could go into the blank which could be objectively true?

I suspect that even the female-associated brain anatomy discussed in the research paper will not be sufficient to falsify an individual's claim about their own gender.