Quote:The original Zionists were secular, so doubtful.

Funny then how the modern version are always going on about god

There is another humanitarian ship that left Sicily to join Gaza today:
 
https://youtu.be/7A9mifzxJl8?t=2
 
For my part I think the Israel is probably the last thing Arabs should worry about. These people are still living according to age old tradition. Lawrence of Arabia had described as primitive but honorable people (as noble savages basically). One century later, age old fabrics of society (based on tradition and spirituality) are breaking apart but they are still not modernizing. They are moving toward a westernized version of tribalism and a westernized version of religion (that I like to refer to as political Islam).
 
Tribal rules and taboos are usually very harsh. I remember reading about it in my cultural anthropology class. They still believe in things like “a woman having her period cannot enter the mosque” (according to this type of Muslims, a man who is bleeding from his rectum has the right to enter the mosque. But a menstruating woman cannot).
 
So if I was an Arab Israel would be at the very bottom of my issues. Even facing genocide is nothing compared to that. Some people from other religions are doing that too. Faith is not the issue. This is about your personal stance toward the world. I think some people are just cowards. They live in this zone of comfort in which they don’t need to challenge their own century old beliefs.
 
/ The freedom flotilla is more about us than about them.
 
/ The ongoing genocide (and the past genocide in Bosnia for instance). This simply means that we have regressed since the cold war era. There used to be an era in which we fought for a worldview (no matter how inefficient or corrupt it was). Now it’s holy war all over again. I don’t think this is acceptable.
 
See in the comic bellow: Muhammad died as a result of Israeli fire. Moche is dead as a result of Iranian drones. And they are saying hello to one another (in the religious fashion) in the after world. So the question is: “Does God really want that?” 

(July 9, 2025 at 2:22 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote: The original Zionists were secular, so doubtful.

It's true. Zionism has an interesting history.

Theodor Herzl was an atheist. He proposed building a Jewish state somewhere, but it didn't necessarily have to be in Palestine. People proposed buying up a large part of South America or maybe Africa and making it a Jewish homeland. 

Many early supporters of Zionism were antisemites. Antisemitic Germans, for example, thought it would be a good idea to get the Jews out of Germany and send them to "where they belong." 

There's always been a religious side to it, or religious people who participate, but that's far from all it is.

Recently Sam Harris (remember him?) has shown that he's a passionate Zionist, who is willing to say that religion isn't all bad, if it involves Israel. 

As usual, it's pretty clear that a lot of the horror in the world that gets blamed on religion is political, economic, and, above all, ideological.

(July 14, 2025 at 4:48 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: For my part I think the Israel is probably the last thing Arabs should worry about.

No doubt the Arabs will agree with you when Israel stops killing people in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen.

(July 14, 2025 at 6:43 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(July 14, 2025 at 4:48 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: For my part I think the Israel is probably the last thing Arabs should worry about.

No doubt the Arabs will agree with you when Israel stops killing people in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, and Yemen.

Look at Algeria, Lybia, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan and even Pakistan (I mean Muslims in general). And where they are not killing one another, the younger generation is trying to flee to Europe because of unemployment (Like Morocco or Tunisia) or they don’t know what to do with their growing population. Egypt is clearly moving toward a 130 million inhabitant figure until 2050. They are already dependent on the grain from Ukraine and they are turning fertile soils that are irrigated by the Nile into construction sites because of the rapidly growing population.
 
Finally, the part of the Arab world that saddens me the worst is Iraq. That part of the Middle-East is literally the Cradle of Civilization. In the past the Tigris and Euphrates River there would nourish large amounts of population. The region was more than self-sufficient in agricultural terms. And the climate was benign. There was no such 120 Degree temperature in this region in the past. + It was a region full of cultural centers, world-renowned schools and trade between East and West (I’m not exaggerating anything that’s how it was until the beginning of the second half of the last century).
 
Today there is climate change. Most crops are no longer produced in this region anymore. People are saying that the whole region might be un-inhabitable by the end of this century.
 
On Zionism:
 
I don’t know about the issue very well. That’s why I created this topic.
 
You know in Ottoman times Jews and Greeks had their own neighborhoods in Constantinople and other cities. Armenians and other minorities disposed of immense wealth that they created through industries or trade activities. The Druze and Alawite communities who are being attacked by Sunnite Arabs as we speak were allowed to practice their faith as long as they paid their taxes.
 
This is just to say that in a more “primitive” world in comparison to our own all of the above had found a way to live together somehow while in our more “modern” world the only solution that is offered is the “it’s you or it’s me” solution. I don’t know if this is normal

The main problem with İsraelis is that they divided and conquered almost everyone in their neighborhoods. Currently I don’t like the Syrian government either. But I don’t want Syria to become a place in which there is fighting among religious minorities, religious sects, Bedouin tribes, Al-Quaida like marauders etc.
 
In fact the history of the region is also complicated. The French and British took over the region and divided it according to the skies-picot plan. Than dictators saw themselves as the inheritors of these colonial powers and treated their own population according to very similar principles. Now they are gone too. So what does Israel do?
 
- The first thing they did was to destroy whatever was left of the Syrian air-power.
 
Now I am hearing that they are objecting to Turkey’s acquisition of Eurofighter fighter jets:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/turk...31985.html
 
I am revolved by this idea because Greece (our main strategic rival in the region) has F-35’s, modernized F-16’s and Eurofighters too. Besides we are the only real opponent to our imperialistic neighbor to the north other than Ukraine of course, but if they were to decide to do something similar in this region there isn’t anything else (not even Israel) to deter them.
 
So the foreign policy of Israel is starting to be complicated as well. The Turkey - Egypt – Israel axis is supposed to be a power that promotes stability in the region. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are willing to normalize ties with Israel.
 
Finally, a permanent solution of some sort is needed in occupied territories. This is a complex issue and I don’t have a perfect solution for this. What I have in mind is something like the Oslo Accords of 1993.