What do people think of my stipulative definition of defining a pleasure as an experience worth having for its own sake?

I am happy for people to accept or reject that definition, because I think that someone could reject it and we still might not disagree substantively.

So then, what is the nature of pleasure?

I’m not sure, but it’s probably quantum.

Boru

There are plenty of experiences worth having for their own sake that are not pleasure.

(March 4, 2026 at 5:46 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: What do people think of my stipulative definition of defining a pleasure as an experience worth having for its own sake?

I am happy for people to accept or reject that definition, because I think that someone could reject it and we still might not disagree substantively.

So then, what is the nature of pleasure?

I think there have been two main definitions of pleasure over the years. 

The first is the one you give: pleasure is gained from an activity that has no goal beyond itself. For example, we listen to music because it gives us pleasure, not because we expect payment or some other additional benefit. 

(This is from Aristotle, and Kant uses the same idea in regard to art. For Kant, art is art if we look at it for its own sake, not for some further benefit.)

The other definition is that pleasure is a by-product when we achieve other goals. That is, if you are living well, doing what is good for you and those around you, you get pleasure from this. You don't try to be good because you want the pleasure -- you want to be good because it's good to be good -- but the pleasure is a happy side effect.

I'd say that in my own life I feel both of these, though I'm no expert. 

I also keep in mind what Kurt Vonnegut said about a happy day, which is not quite what you're asking, but related: "Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt."

I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.

(March 4, 2026 at 6:36 pm)Angrboda Wrote: There are plenty of experiences worth having for their own sake that are not pleasure.

Can you give me an example of one?

(March 4, 2026 at 7:50 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.

(March 4, 2026 at 6:36 pm)Angrboda Wrote: There are plenty of experiences worth having for their own sake that are not pleasure.

Can you give me an example of one?

Most surgeries are experiences worth having, very few of them are pleasurable. Kicking heroin, stopping smoking, calling the police, and so on.

Oh, and being kicked in the bollocks. A worthwhile experience in and of itself. Definitely a teachable moment.

Boru

(March 4, 2026 at 7:59 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 4, 2026 at 7:50 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.


Can you give me an example of one?

Most surgeries are experiences worth having, very few of them are pleasurable. Kicking heroin, stopping smoking, calling the police, and so on.

Oh, and being kicked in the bollocks. A worthwhile experience in and of itself. Definitely a teachable moment.

Boru

Those experiences are all instrumentally good, not good for their own sake.

If you didn't gain anything positive from the kick in a bollocks, and you weren't a masochist so the experience wouldn't count as a pleasure overall, then it isn't good for its own sake.

Same applies to the other examples. They're good instrumentally, not for their own sake.

(March 4, 2026 at 8:02 pm)Disagreeable Wrote:

(March 4, 2026 at 7:59 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Most surgeries are experiences worth having, very few of them are pleasurable. Kicking heroin, stopping smoking, calling the police, and so on.

Oh, and being kicked in the bollocks. A worthwhile experience in and of itself. Definitely a teachable moment.

Boru

Those experiences are all instrumentally good, not good for their own sake.

If you didn't gain anything positive from the kick in a bollocks, and you weren't a masochist so the experience wouldn't count as a pleasure overall, then it isn't good for its own sake.

Same applies to the other examples. They're good instrumentally, not for their own sake.

Let’s not split rabbits. The case can be made that all experiences are instrumentally good and that none are intrinsically good.

Boru

(March 4, 2026 at 7:50 pm)Disagreeable Wrote: I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.

(March 4, 2026 at 6:36 pm)Angrboda Wrote: There are plenty of experiences worth having for their own sake that are not pleasure.

Can you give me an example of one?

Having a child, passing an exam, discovering new meaning in your life. You're putting the cart before the horse.