(August 12, 2009 at 7:34 am)Pippy Wrote: Thank you Bozo for demonstrating the very least power prayer can hold. That does not make is literally useless anymore does it? I could try to take it much further, but yeah, feel better. Good enough.

That's not the very least it can achieve, it's the very most it can achieve.

That's what a placebo is.

Quote:That's not the very least it can achieve, it's the very most it can achieve.

Then you have made my point for me, thank you. If that is the least and most it can do, it is no longer useless or without any value. I still hold that prayer is bigger than feeling good, but we can stop there.

Quote:That's what a placebo is.

I don't see the connection between sugar pills and prayer. If I prayed and got healed, is it only about 30% due to the placebo effect, and the other 70% is real God-in-a-bottle?

thank you,
-Pip

(August 11, 2009 at 7:03 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Bozo,

I would settle for much less to prove that prayer worked. For example I could flip a coin 100 times while he prayed for heads, and if heads showed up more than could be accounted for by random chance... prayer would be proven.

We already established that what Pippy calls "prayer" is actually just "meditation", well in my own mental model.

Rhizo

Actually hallucination, even mass hallucination/mistaken illusion/delusion of some sort is far more probable.

Because, for a start - it's already happened before, like when 70,000 people in Portugal, Fatima claimed to have seen the sun crash to the earth.

Supernatural things such as that are far more improbable than any form of delusion, even mass delusion.

(August 12, 2009 at 7:47 am)Pippy Wrote: If I prayed and got healed, is it only about 30% due to the placebo effect, and the other 70% is real God-in-a-bottle?

No, because there almost certaintly is no God. Unless you can somehow magicially evidence him for me.

And similarly to what I said above, if you somehow magically showed me God, I'd be more likely to be hallucinating. Of course you don't claim that to be possible yourself, because God has no shape or form, he's invisible and intangible, etc, etc, etc ...(how convient (and pointless and useless and gratuitious)).

EvF

EvF,

You forgot that god is a she to Pippy. Pippy also has "polytheist" under religious views but only ever refers to god as "she" not "they" or specific gods. I think he means pantheist with a female face?

When I started the "Conversion" thread I asked about what evidence would be convincing to either side of the argument without using the word evidence. It occurs to me that both sides seem to be locked into their epistemic approach to truth. I see what you mean about evidence probably having a natural cause that is not god.

For example if I was in some public place and was presented with an awesome miracle like the sun crashing to the ground I would either think God, or delusion. If I was any form of theist I would probably think god, but as an atheist I would bet on some other cause. Mass hypnosis is an interesting topic.

Rhizo

(August 12, 2009 at 11:52 am)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: EvF,

You forgot that god is a she to Pippy.

I know this, I've seen him post it

I delibrately refer to God as a "he" so when someone says "Oh, but God could be ashe" I can just say:

"There's no difference to me, between a non-existent male God and a non-existent female God."

Just so happens 'he' is one letter shorter than She, and it draws this point up - whereas 'it' perhaps wouldn't.

EvF

(August 12, 2009 at 11:56 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

(August 12, 2009 at 11:52 am)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: EvF,

You forgot that god is a she to Pippy.

I know this, I've seen him post it

I delibrately refer to God as a "he" so when someone says "Oh, but God could be ashe" I can just say:

"There's no difference to me, between a non-existent male God and a non-existent female God."

Just so happens 'he' is one letter shorter than She, and it draws this point up - whereas 'it' perhaps wouldn't.

EvF

Not exactly on topic, but the bit in bold reminded of me of Bill Hicks talking about women priests

"Women priests; I think that's fine, so what, now we've got priests of both sexes I don't listen to. Fuck, I don't care, have one with three balls and eight titties, I don't fucking care, you know."

Nicely chosen quote and a good reminder. I always found that funny

EvF

I can believe you have made people spechless before. Your ignorance just left me that way. I'm not afraid of non religious people. I am afraid of religious people. I'm afraid for my basic rights and I'm afraid for my life. Have you seen any Atheists blowing up abortion centers? How many Atheists fly air planes into buildings or strap bombs to their chests and kill a handfull of people including themselves? You know what I mean when I say prayer doesn't work. God can't make an amputee grow new legs through prayer and he can't make a bind person see. He can't make a mentally retarded kid suddenly not be mentally retarded. Back when I sort of believed in God around the age of 10 I asked him to give me big boobs when I grew up. I was a terribly skinny kid. It didn't work...I ended up having to spend eight grand for a doctor to make them bigger. I guess you could say God has never done a thing for me but science sure has!! I have been in a tornado several times. A couple of times I was not at home and I noticed people praying (obviously at my house we don't pray). I also noticed those same people were the ones who didn't even find a safe place to stay. They just stopped right in the middle of the room and got down right there. As if they were praying it would be ok and magically God would shield them from the tornado.

Yeah, Bill Hicks was an absolute genius. Loved his work.

Quote:No, because there almost certaintly is no God. Unless you can somehow magicially evidence him for me.

You used to be cool EvF, what happened? You magically evidence her away first.

Quote:Of course you don't claim that to be possible yourself, because God has no shape or form, he's invisible and intangible, etc, etc, etc ...(how convient (and pointless and useless and gratuitious)).

I didn't say she was intangible and invisible. I'm not sure an invisible intangible god would be very convenient. It sounds like your Kyu now, picking on me for your beef with other theists, with Christians.

Hopefully you next post is more in your kind and respectful nature.

Quote:I think he means pantheist with a female face?

That would be incorrect. Thank you for playing.

Quote:I can believe you have made people spechless before. Your ignorance just left me that way.

Less and less impressed.

Quote:I'm not afraid of non religious people. I am afraid of religious people.

I am also afraid of religious people. To be more fair, I am afraid of fanatics, of which there can be an atheist variety. I am not a religious person. Nor am I someone to be afraid of.

Quote:Have you seen any Atheists blowing up abortion centers?

I don't see what that has to do with what we are discussing. Talk about Bill Maher more. I don't like being associated with fundys that blow up abortion clinics...

Quote:How many Atheists fly air planes into buildings or strap bombs to their chests and kill a handfull of people including themselves?

I don't know. But the terrorist thing is interesting. The suicide bomber. Where does a suicide bomber come from? What is the process that turns a young child into a older suicide bomber? I am very curious as to your response.

Quote:You know what I mean when I say prayer doesn't work.

Yes, and that's why I disagree.

Quote:God can't make an amputee grow new legs through prayer and he can't make a bind person see. He can't make a mentally retarded kid suddenly not be mentally retarded.

I couldn't agree more. These a great examples of what prayer CANNOT do. I would never purport that the power of prayer included goring new legs. You must misunderstand prayer.

Quote:Back when I sort of believed in God around the age of 10 I asked him to give me big boobs when I grew up.

I feel terrible for you about that. That you felt you needed big boobs, and that you felt moved to ask god for them. That is also something she cannot control... Very sad.

Quote:It didn't work...I ended up having to spend eight grand for a doctor to make them bigger.

Also very unfortunate. I would have liked to see you grow comfortable with the way you were... But you choice. I'm getting less and less impressed.

Quote:They just stopped right in the middle of the room and got down right there. As if they were praying it would be ok and magically God would shield them from the tornado.

I maintain. I am not the Christians you guys don't like in your lives. Please don't argue with me about what the Christians you don't like do, because I am not them. I have never been in a tornado. I have been in hurricanes, and I did not pray.

You are fun to talk to, but kind of gross and sad.

Thank you for enlightening.
-Pip

(August 12, 2009 at 6:33 pm)Pippy Wrote: Yeah, Bill Hicks was an absolute genius. Loved his work.

I concur.

Quote:You used to be cool EvF,

Did I?

Quote:what happened?

Perhaps you can't handle it when I disagree with you (or more strongly so)?

Quote:You magically evidence her away first.

Pretty hard to do when there's no evidence of 'her' in the first place.

Quote:I didn't say she was intangible and invisible.

Ok, then where is 'she'?

Quote: I'm not sure an invisible intangible god would be very convenient.

Convinient in the sense it's a quick and easy way to explain how he can't be detected. "If God exists how come he can't be detected?" "Because he's invisible and intangible".

Quote: It sounds like your Kyu now, picking on me for your beef with other theists, with Christians.

My beef is not with Christians but with Christianity. I respect individuals but not beliefs. Beliefs are not something to 'respect'.

Quote:Hopefully you next post is more in your kind and respectful nature.

How have I been disrespectful in anyway? When did I insult you? I repeat: Beliefs are not something to 'respect'.
Beliefs are a matter of whether something is true or not. I can say what I like about them, and give my views on them - I'm not disrespecting anybody.

EvF